Spoilers Rogue grade and discussion thread

[DigificWriter]

RTD clearly intended for the Shalka story to be canon

Putting aside the fact that there's no Canon for the Shalka story to be added to, all we can definitively say at this point is that one of The Doctor's previous faces has been revealed to have been Richard E. Grant. Jumping to the conclusion that Grant's inclusion as a past incarnation of The Doctor means that the Shalka story definitively happened, barring any future direct references to it, is presumptively premature, especially since it's fueled mostly by a clearly non-serious Twitter comment from RTD (who has previously said, definitively, that the Canon question is irrelevant when it comes to Doctor Who) on a post that Paul Cornell made about Scream of the Shalka referencing the inclusion of Grant's face in Rogue through the use of a quote from Withnail and I.

 

[David cgc]

To elaborate on my original reaction, REG having played two mutually-exclusive non-canon* Doctors makes him the perfect choice to just throw in there to demonstrate we’re in a world of continuity anarchy. Not that we ever weren’t.

 

[The Wormhole]

Putting aside the fact that there's no Canon for the Shalka story to be added to,

Exactly, which means those who want to consider Shalka as their personal canon can, and those who don't won't. Hardly anything new. Up until now I was among the group who believed Shalka could be retconned as an early War Doctor adventure. But now that we know there really was a REG Doctor, I'm just as fine with Shalka being one of his adventures.

 

[Orac]

Rogue's ship reminded me of one of the Klingon ships from Star Trek 12, it even had a cloaking device.[/Superficial observation]

 

[DigificWriter]

now that we know there really was a REG Doctor, I'm just as fine with Shalka being one of his adventures.

The problem is that because the Grant Doctor has to be a past incarnation of The Doctor, Scream of the Shalka as written doesn't really work without massive lore-breaking contradictions given the presence of the Android Master in it.

If you divorce the Grant Doctor from the Shalka story, though, he can pretty seemlessly fit as a past Doctor whose adventures are currently unknown and wide open.

 

[Captaindemotion]

We’ve been added to canon by mistake!

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[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Ever since the Timeless Child, how is this a problem in any way?
Insert any face you want in the lineup.
As presented the hologram showed faces based on a scan of the Doctor, but not explicitly his memories.
For all we know the scanner compared the Doctor’s DNA to database records and it had more data samples than the faces we knew of.
The lineup might even have showed more unknowns if it ran longer.

 

[The Wormhole]

The problem is that because the Grant Doctor has to be a past incarnation of The Doctor, Scream of the Shalka as written doesn't really work without massive lore-breaking contradictions

Guess how many fucks I give.

 

[Mr Awe]

The problem is that because the Grant Doctor has to be a past incarnation of The Doctor, Scream of the Shalka as written doesn't really work without massive lore-breaking contradictions given the presence of the Android Master in it.

As you like to point out frequently, there is no canon, which includes the lore. Hence, there's nothing to break.

 

[Sketcher]

There is a theory I read where the Shalka Doctor is the true original 9th Doctor in a timeline where the Time War never happened. But then it did and parts of the Doctor's own history were erased/reset back to the 8th Doctor, and then we get the events of the War Doctor.

 

[matthunter]

There is a theory I read where the Shalka Doctor is the true original 9th Doctor in a timeline where the Time War never happened. But then it did and parts of the Doctor's own history were erased/reset back to the 8th Doctor, and then we get the events of the War Doctor.

That would work - I never liked the 9th Doctor being back to "900 years old" (albeit with the wiggle room of "900 years of phone box travel" indicating he was no longer counting his years on Gallifrey). Then they went and made the War Doctor 800-ish. Which would WORK if he was counting from his own "birth", since fresh!Warrior was young Hurt and we know from 11 on Trenzalore that within a body ~800-900 years is fine, but with what seems like human aging.

 

[DigificWriter]

As you like to point out frequently, there is no canon, which includes the lore. Hence, there's nothing to break.

'There is no Canon's means that there is no specific work or body of work that expressly dictates and defines the show's narrative history, which means that anyone can add anything to the lore of the Doctor Who universe at any time without officially overriding or supplanting anything else. However, while no bit of lore can ever override or supplant any other bit of lore, there are some bits of lore that are absolutely incompatible with and contradictory towards each other. The audio play Spare Parts and the Series 10 episodes World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls are one such example where this is the case, and my contention is that such is also the case with Scream of the Shalka and literally all of Modern Who up to the present with regards to both The Doctor's history as laid out in it and the presence of the Android Master as voiced by Derek Jacobi.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

There is a theory I read where the Shalka Doctor is the true original 9th Doctor in a timeline where the Time War never happened. But then it did and parts of the Doctor's own history were erased/reset back to the 8th Doctor, and then we get the events of the War Doctor.

I think I mentioned that theory quite frequently lately.

 

[Steve Roby]

And anyway, the universe has been rewritten by both the Time War and the explosion of the Tardis. The most recent Doctors are effectively in a different universe from the one the earlier TV Doctors existed in.

'There is no Canon's means that there is no specific work or body of work that expressly dictates and defines the show's narrative history, which means that anyone can add anything to the lore of the Doctor Who universe at any time without officially overriding or supplanting anything else. However, while no bit of lore can ever override or supplant any other bit of lore, there are some bits of lore that are absolutely incompatible with and contradictory towards each other. The audio play Spare Parts and the Series 10 episodes World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls are one such example where this is the case, and my contention is that such is also the case with Scream of the Shalka and literally all of Modern Who up to the present with regards to both The Doctor's history as laid out in it and the presence of the Android Master as voiced by Derek Jacobi.

And anyway, the universe has been rewritten by both the Time War and the explosion of the Tardis. Oh, and apparently the Toymaker's messed up the universe too. The most recent Doctors are effectively in a different universe from the one the earlier TV Doctors existed in. Everything is true, but at some points in the timeline some things overwrite others. Most of the time the cat in the box is neither and both alive and/or dead, but occasionally the wave function collapses and the cat is either Platt's Cybermen or Moffat's... and then the cat goes back in the box again, and next time the box is opened, there's a different answer.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

And anyway, the universe has been rewritten by both the Time War and the explosion of the Tardis. Oh, and apparently the Toymaker's messed up the universe too. The most recent Doctors are effectively in a different universe from the one the earlier TV Doctors existed in. Everything is true, but at some points in the timeline some things overwrite others. Most of the time the cat in the box is neither and both alive and/or dead, but occasionally the wave function collapses and the cat is either Platt's Cybermen or Moffat's... and then the cat goes back in the box again, and next time the box is opened, there's a different answer.

Perfect explanation. No notes.

 

[Mr Awe]

'There is no Canon's means that there is no specific work or body of work that expressly dictates and defines the show's narrative history, which means that anyone can add anything to the lore of the Doctor Who universe at any time without officially overriding or supplanting anything else. However, while no bit of lore can ever override or supplant any other bit of lore, there are some bits of lore that are absolutely incompatible with and contradictory towards each other. The audio play Spare Parts and the Series 10 episodes World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls are one such example where this is the case, and my contention is that such is also the case with Scream of the Shalka and literally all of Modern Who up to the present with regards to both The Doctor's history as laid out in it and the presence of the Android Master as voiced by Derek Jacobi.

TL;DR

I'm not going to get into a debate. But logically, no fixed canon means no fixed lore. Hence, it can't be broken.

But, thanks for playing. Please take your consolation prize as you exit.

 

[The Wormhole]

What if the real canon and lore are the friends we made along the way?

 

[Australis]

Reminded me of that western cover of 'Paint it Black' in Westworld.

Did you hear the same song in 'Wednesday'? Amazing version.

 

[matthunter]

What if the real canon and lore are the friends we made along the way?

They're not your real friends, you know.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Perfect explanation. No notes.

Or simply too many notes?