Spoilers Rogue grade and discussion thread

[kirk55555]

Its actually rather nice of RTD to count the Grant Doctor. Surprising since I remember reading less than charitable remarks about his performance in Shalka.

Beyond that, there's no reason to not count him as middle-aged version of the War Doctor, or even a cancelled incarnation of the Doctor from the Time War where he regenerated from and then unregenerated back to John Hurt? All's possible.

Like I was trying to say its not Richard E Grant thats the problem, if anything I'm biased towards wanting him to be an incarnation of The Doctor. But to be fair I am treating that reveal as if I was neutral to the person in question, which leads to me having huge problems with the reveal as I stated.

Even ignoring the whole "The Doctor is less special if everyone is The Doctor" factor, it also screws with things in universe even more, assuming (like me) you're going by the lore of the show from its creation up until Chibnall decided to make it "his" show and not accepting his BS. Up to the Fugitive Doctor, if we add her in retroactively, we had a Doctor who (starting with the 1st Doctor) regenerated 12 times before getting more regenerations in The Time of the Doctor (assuming we no longer count the semi-regenerations like the 10 clone as having used up a regeneration), and this fits the lore of every Timelord being able to regenerate 12 times, as first stated in The Deadly Assassin. The timeless child could be completely retconned tomorrow and everyone up to the Fugitive Doctor still fits. But adding Grant ruins that, unless they pull some "he's an erased regeneration" thing or whatever but it makes no sense that some scanner would read that, especially since we've seen the "Doctor gets scanned and old lives are revealed" thing before and only ever saw legitimate incarnations.

Again thats just my feelings on it, in a vaccum I like Richard E Grant as a version of The Doctor and would even try to fit him into canon if he wasn't just the third secret Doctor we've had to deal with.

 

[Rich Watson]

One of the VFX people on the show confirmed on the site I still call Twitter that REG was specially brought in for a photo shoot back in February, so make of that what you will.

 

[Rich Watson]

This interview seems to have gone unnoticed but in it RTD talks about how apologising to Kate Heron for what he said about 'Loki' led to her writing for the show and also reveals that she and Briony Redman have written a novelisation of it.

https://www.gamesradar.com/entertai...-russell-t-davies-loki-kate-herron-exclusive/

 

[Captaindemotion]

Solid episode, not as good as the last 3 IMHO, but better than the first 2 in the season. I’m not a Bridgerton fan (watched the first 2 or 3 episodes with my wife and even she got bored by then), but the episode did remind me of early RTD Who; I could’ve imagined Nine or Ten with Rose or Martha quite easily in this episode.

I was surprised at how easily and fast The Doctor fell for Rogue, who was, after all, a fairly ruthless, if handsome guy.

As for

Spoiler: Spoiler for this episode

the REG cameo, I actually thought it was David Warner for a second! Now that would’ve been a deep cut. And then thought it might’ve been some of the Morbius faces.

I’ve said a few times that it might’ve been cool if Richard played the War Doctor, so as to tie in with Shalka, but I can also see the merit in the argument that yet another unknown (in the context of live-action DW, anyway) Doctor is becoming a bit repetitive. But, still, nice cameo.

Incidentally, today marks Colin Baker’s birthday and the 50th anniversary of Jon Pertwee’s last regular episode/Tom Baker’s first appearance as The Doctor.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

One of the VFX people on the show confirmed on the site I still call Twitter that REG was specially brought in for a photo shoot back in February, so make of that what you will.

That was something I idly wondered about. Thank you for sharing that news but can you post a link to that tweet?

With Grant coming in specifically for this moment, I feel like the chances of him appearing in live action has skyrocketed. Or perhaps I'm setting myself up for disappointment? I don't know when or how, but I'm very intrigued at that prospect!

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

They might as well just start declaring random British TV characters to have retroactively been The Doctor, I'm putting money on Captain Scarlet, Worzel Gummidge, Adam Adamant, John Steed and Mr. Blobby (as The Doctor's version of The Decayed Master).

.

Worzel Gummidge did you say? If Tennant can be three of them, surely Pertwee can be two.

Weakest episode of the season so far for me. At least the episodes to this point have felt somewhat original, but this felt like a warmed over first draft of Family of Blood with a cut price Captain Jack thrown in.

 

[kirk55555]

Worzel Gummidge did you say? If Tennant can be three of them, surely Pertwee can be two.

In retrospect I should have picked characters played by Doctor actors for the gag, but I really just picked the first British TV characters that came to mind at the moment.

 

[EnderAKH]

Here's my take on the REG Doctor. Moffat counted the Hand Tennant from Parting of the Ways as a regeneration. I think Davies decided not to count that one, so he could count REG's Shalka Doctor as official. He intentionally put the faces out of order so he didn't have to justify where the fits in. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I have no problem with REG as another previously unknown Doctor. The pandora's box was kicked wide open with the Timeless Child, but it was of course first cracked way back in "The Brain of Morbius" that there were more Doctors out there than we are aware of. Not even the Doctor themselves are fully aware of who they've been across the eons.

And even without the Timeless Child, there was the possibility of alternate timelines in which a past Doctor went left instead of right and may have regenerated into a different body than the one in the main timeline. Maybe REG was an alternate Ninth Doctor, another pre-Hartnell Doctor, or a Doctor from a possible future. We don't know--yet. Having unknown Doctors occasionally popping out of the woodwork screws up the in-universe numbering of incarnations no doubt, but Hartnell will always be marketed in the real world as the First, Troughton the Second, and so on. To me, it reignites the mystery of just who is the Doctor by asking "who has the Doctor been?"

 

[VDCNI]

Best episode of the season I thought.

I have never seen Bridgerton but so what, there are many many other stories set in that time period. I don't really get why it matters.

Loved Jonathan Groff, yeah the connection was quick but it's TV and it's Jonathan Groff!

I was fine with the ending, bit of a cheat but there were still consequences. Though I'm expecting Rogue to return.

I never liked Shalka but don't mind REG popping up. I've got better things to do than worry about what it means for canon.

 

[Tuskin38]

I love Ncuti Gatwa‘s doctor (and the writing) so much. I don’t think I’ve had this much fun watching Doctor Who since Matt Smith

 

[jaime]

Like I was trying to say its not Richard E Grant thats the problem, if anything I'm biased towards wanting him to be an incarnation of The Doctor. But to be fair I am treating that reveal as if I was neutral to the person in question, which leads to me having huge problems with the reveal as I stated.

Even ignoring the whole "The Doctor is less special if everyone is The Doctor" factor, it also screws with things in universe even more, assuming (like me) you're going by the lore of the show from its creation up until Chibnall decided to make it "his" show and not accepting his BS. Up to the Fugitive Doctor, if we add her in retroactively, we had a Doctor who (starting with the 1st Doctor) regenerated 12 times before getting more regenerations in The Time of the Doctor (assuming we no longer count the semi-regenerations like the 10 clone as having used up a regeneration), and this fits the lore of every Timelord being able to regenerate 12 times, as first stated in The Deadly Assassin. The timeless child could be completely retconned tomorrow and everyone up to the Fugitive Doctor still fits. But adding Grant ruins that, unless they pull some "he's an erased regeneration" thing or whatever but it makes no sense that some scanner would read that, especially since we've seen the "Doctor gets scanned and old lives are revealed" thing before and only ever saw legitimate incarnations.

Again thats just my feelings on it, in a vaccum I like Richard E Grant as a version of The Doctor and would even try to fit him into canon if he wasn't just the third secret Doctor we've had to deal with.

It’s safe… can assume the Shalka Doctor existed for a bubble of five minutes before Clara jumped into the bio data on trenzalore and put the Doctors timestream back on track, and the War Doctor slotted back in like nothing happened — since the GE was also Grant, it ends up making sense with not too much work luckily. Basically Faction Paradox style shenanigans.
Otherwise I’d be in same fan-huff as yourself xD
(Edit: and if I was to be super piss-people-off for all we know Ncuti is no longer playing the same Doctor anymore anyway, as he split off from Tennant and didn’t even get to generate his own clothes — because having Tennant in the very unisex clothing of Jodie’s Doc would have been disrespectful to men in women’s clothing or whatever it was RTD waffled about at the time, whereas having the first Black British Doctor turn up like he forgot his PE kit is just *chefs kiss* representation. Chibnall is clutching RTDs beer in shock by now.)

 

[Annie McCoy]

Personally, i love this episode so much!!

Massive Jonathan Groff fan and he was amazing as Rogue, the chemistry with him and Ncuti was off the charts imo. Im very glad to have a Doctor heavy episode, especially one so fun with more heartfelt moments thrown in. I don’t watch Bridgerton but as soon as i saw the opening I said “it’s so Bridgerton”, the references managed to not get boring to me (the cosplay references were fun but a little more.. boring). I was overly invested in the side plot with Emily, i wanted a sweet side character after Lindy to be honest (still not over her), so was shocked she was a Chulder i needed a sweet girl.

Why did they do that ending to me. i cried (i cry at everything).

Side note, the outfits were so good and Ncuti looked very fine.

 

[Mr Awe]

This was a mediocre episode for me (7). It didn't seem to sit as well with me as most others. I didn't dislike it. Just seemed a bit superficial. Particularly the instant romance. Yeah, that happens in real life but not sure about the Doctor. Most everything seemed only surface deep. Basically fun fluff. A cotton candy episode.

The strongest part of the episode for me was the Doctor refusing to give up on Ruby.

Glad most of you liked it more though!

 

[kirk55555]

Here's my take on the REG Doctor. Moffat counted the Hand Tennant from Parting of the Ways as a regeneration. I think Davies decided not to count that one, so he could count REG's Shalka Doctor as official. He intentionally put the faces out of order so he didn't have to justify where the fits in. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

But the hand is already taken out at this point. Like I said, the Fugitive Doctor took the last "fake regeneration" off the table, with her and the War Doctor every one of The Doctor's 13 incarnations are accounted for.

I have no problem with REG as another previously unknown Doctor. The pandora's box was kicked wide open with the Timeless Child, but it was of course first cracked way back in "The Brain of Morbius" that there were more Doctors out there than we are aware of. Not even the Doctor themselves are fully aware of who they've been across the eons.

People keep talking about the Morbius faces, but outside of one of the people that worked on the show (and we only know this from interviews years later) the faces weren't explicitly old Doctors, at least that wasn't the general intention of the show. At the time everyone else I've ever heard had just assumed that the mystery faces were Morbius's other lives, since he was a timelord as well. I think that at this point its a retcon to act like the accepted theory was that they were mysterious Doctors.

Anyway I suppose it doesn't matter, hopefully some producer after RTD will fix The Doctor and undo the Chibnall stuff, but until then I expect the disrespect of The Doctor's character, and Classic Who in general, to continue. RTD seems to actively hate any Doctor Who that came before his time, which is why he's fine with messing with things. I'll continue to keep to the actual lore of the show that started in 1963, RTD will continue to act like he invented Doctor Who in 2005 and no one but himself and Chibnall ever worked on it. Hopefully we'll still occasionally keep getting decent episodes even if the overall lore is just a lot of mediocre that no one should think too hard about.

 

[Starkers]

The moment the Doctor and Rogue were talking about expanding the trap to cover more than 4 people I knew exactly where this was heading, and you know what? Didn't spoil my enjoyment one bit. I just hope Rogue becomes the new River, not the new Lynda!

Anyway, five stars, no notes.

That was perfect in every way (even down to the Lifeforce style corpses) I love Bridgerton (it's Game of Thrones with romance instead of violence) and it's pretty clear the people making this love it too, even down to the anachronistic music.

Oh and I loved "Instant Strictly" as well, there's a line that'll go over a lot of US viewers' heads.

Millie was fantastic and Ncuti and Groff's chemistry was Off.The.Charts! The costumes, the VFX (love Rogue's ship) the music, the direction, the costumes, the script (those ladies need to be back next season)...my favourite episode of the season so far, and given how much I loved 73 Yards that's saying something.

 

[Turtletrekker]

How does the Shalka Master fit into their timeline?

 

[Commander Troi]

Loved it. Never seen Bridgerton, but I didn't feel it was necessary. Rogue was cool and I hope we see him again. I did think, "Captain Jack would've loved 15!" The bird people were well done and I kept getting surprised when more showed up. I loved how the Doctor wouldn't give up on Ruby, and the flashback to him promising her mum he'd keep her safe.

 

[kirk55555]

How does the Shalka Master fit into their timeline?

The Shalka Master was voiced by Derek Jacobi, so could he just be a younger version of the same Master that Jacobi played in live action? I don't quite remember the backstory of that Master, but since he's had Big Finish adventures he must have been active before using the Chameleon Arch and ending up at the end of the universe.

 

[Steve Roby]

I'll continue to keep to the actual lore of the show that started in 1963.

All of the big changes, no matter how controversial at the time, that were already in place when I started watching the show are the one true status quo, and all the changes after I started watching are a betrayal of everything that show about the cranky old human man and his granddaughter in the time machine she named the Tardis ever stood for.

The Shalka Master was voiced by Derek Jacobi, so could he just be a younger version of the same Master that Jacobi played in live action?

The Shalka Master is an android, or at the very least exists in an android body.