Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

[Ghel]

No interpersonal conflicts--I call shenanigans! As long as people live together, they will have interpersonal conflicts simply by virtue of their proximity to one another. Some people will have differing ideas regarding how to solve a problem, some people will come into a conflict over a "scarce" commodity (we both want the promotion, but only one of us can have it), and some people will just have personality conflicts.

No Religion--no matter whether you are religious or not, it's hard to imagine that religious beliefs that have existed since humanity began (whether monotheistic, polytheistic, or other) that somehow, humanity will shed all religious belief in the next 200 - 300 years merely because we advance technologically. (This really only applies to TOS and TNG where religious people were relegated to "primitive" cultures)

 

[Belz...]

I don't have a problem with no religion, but not that soon. Plus, superstition will stay for quite a bit longer.

 

[Trek Survivor]

No money.

Mankind having evolved past greed and now working only to better themselves.

No conflict on TNG among the crew because of all this enlightened evolving.

Wesley.

The no money part - if there's no money, there's no economy and no trade. You need an accepted medium of exchange or else you have to have a barter system.

TNG's crew had no real interpersonal conflict unless an outsider came in (Shelby) who was treated relatively poorly by the crew (Riker), who should've been professional enough to understand that she's there for a reason and to do a job.

Lack of visible enlisted crew with actual rank pips/stripes. Not everyone's an officer. Why spend 4 years at the academy to be a yeoman in TNG's timeframe? Someone has to fill clerical duties for the admirals at Starbases, and an ensign sure wouldn't do it.

Jumpsuits. Those never looked comfortable nor like uniforms, unlike the Wrath of Khan uniforms.

Wrath of Khan uniform derivatives - the crewneck and no-shirt variants. Better to use transitional uniforms, like Excelsior and Ambassador were transitional ships to the Enterprise D. I've seen a few here and at the Uniform site.

Dress uniforms - they were actual dresses. Later uniforms with just gold piping were better, but I'm sure there's a happy medium to be had.

Admiral uniforms - they changed every time an admiral appeared with no explanation.

DS9/VOY jumpsuits - why?

No political exploration - just for an episode or a scene, discuss the political structure of the Federation. At best, it's a republic, with elected representatives sent to a Federation Council of some sort, leaving the individual planets to manage their own internal affairs without interference from other species. What's the President's term, and how is he elected/selected? Is it Federation-wide, or is he elected from the Federation Council, similar to how a Prime Minister works in some governments?

No advancement - I get it with contracts and all, but why would Riker stall his career for over 12 years to stay on the Enterprise, when he could've been an admiral by then? Similarly Picard, Crusher, La Forge, etc. The original crew had rank advancement much more quickly than the TNG crew.

Carpet/Upholstery civilian garb - I've seriously seen some of those civilian outfits on couches in the late 80s/early 90s.

Overuse of Miranda/Excelsior/Oberth ships - are there not any other classes of vessel in Starfleet? We should've seen New Orleans, Centaur, Constitution, et al, all over the place. A perfect opportunity for TNG-R to spruce things up, which they likely won't take.

No exploration of Pike or April's time on the Enterprise - aside from the Cage/Menagerie, and the animated episode with April, we don't hear anything about Captain Robert April's time on the Enterprise, and he remains really nothing more than conjecture.

No exploration of 1701B or 1701C - Perhaps after Generations or even during, we could get at least some notice that Harriman either retired or transferred, and what happened to Demora Sulu, at least in passing. And when did 1701-C launch? Little things yes, but they make a difference.

Archons in Enterprise - It would've been nice to see a real live Daedalus class vessel, perhaps even mention the USS Archon getting lost, or one of the other Daedalus class getting lost somewhere.

Orions in Next Generation, DS9, Voyager - nowhere to be found. All we saw was Rachel Nichols in ST09 as an example of a 'normal' Orion in Starfleet.

There's more if I could think of it, but that should do for now.

You do realise that almost all of these had nothing to do with Roddenberry (his 'worst ideas' are the topic of the thread)...

 

[T'Girl]

You do realise that almost all of these had nothing to do with Roddenberry (his 'worst ideas' are the topic of the thread)...

To be fair, many of the issues brought up during the course of this tread can't be directly linked to Roddenberry, but rather to the group known as TPTB, Star Trek as a concept, and to the "expanded universe" that has been created by the fan base over time.

 

[sonak]

I don't have a problem with no religion, but not that soon. Plus, superstition will stay for quite a bit longer.

I think that both will be here to stay for a long while. Belief is often remarkably impervious to logic and evidence, and "religion" or especially "spirituality" can be so broad and malleable that they can adapt themselves to whatever scientific discoveries or cultural changes will come.

 

[maneth]

I have no problem with superstitions and individual spiritual experiences (even belief in a supernatural being) will survive for as long as humanity survives. However, I do hope that Roddenberry's vision of no organized religion, with religious figures in positions of authority and religious principles as foundations for secular laws (except in cases where such principles transcend individual religions, as in "You shall not commit murder") will come to pass. In fact, such developments have been underway in the West (at least outside the US) since the mid-20th century if not earlier.

 

[sonak]

I have no problem with superstitions and individual spiritual experiences (even belief in a supernatural being) will survive for as long as humanity survives. However, I do hope that Roddenberry's vision of no organized religion, with religious figures in positions of authority and religious principles as foundations for secular laws (except in cases where such principles transcend individual religions, as in "You shall not commit murder") will come to pass. In fact, such developments have been underway in the West (at least outside the US) since the mid-20th century if not earlier.

organized religion at its simplest is just groups of like-minded people with similar beliefs coming together. I don't see how it disappears completely without the kind of oppression that wouldn't fit an optimistic future.


But yes, organized religion stripped of its previous power and influence does seem like a reasonable extrapolation, since as you mentioned, that trend's already underway in a lot of places.

 

[TheGoodNews]

The evidence you've presented to make your case is faulty.

No just factual.

 

[Nightdiamond]

...... However, I do hope that Roddenberry's vision of no organized religion, with religious figures in positions of authority and religious principles as foundations for secular laws (except in cases where such principles transcend individual religions, as in "You shall not commit murder") will come to pass. In fact, such developments have been underway in the West (at least outside the US) since the mid-20th century if not earlier.

....But yes, organized religion stripped of its previous power and influence does seem like a reasonable extrapolation, since as you mentioned, that trend's already underway in a lot of places.

Rodenberry's Trek basically says that humanity solved their major problems without religion whatsoever. It was all done by scientific discovery and hard work.

Thanks to technology, there is no hunger, need or want, so people now work to better themselves and the rest of humanity... you have to admit, this plan does sound pretty practical for an advanced society.

If anything, many episodes say that religion is the cause of the problems that humans tried so hard to get out of.

But the downside to this, is that the materialism seems to leave (at least humans) empty. Notice how various spirituality and religious themes keep popping up.

Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.

They needed something to believe in.

 

[Lt. Cheka Wey]

They needed something to believe in.

The Federation was neat enough for that purpose.

 

[sonak]

...... However, I do hope that Roddenberry's vision of no organized religion, with religious figures in positions of authority and religious principles as foundations for secular laws (except in cases where such principles transcend individual religions, as in "You shall not commit murder") will come to pass. In fact, such developments have been underway in the West (at least outside the US) since the mid-20th century if not earlier.

....But yes, organized religion stripped of its previous power and influence does seem like a reasonable extrapolation, since as you mentioned, that trend's already underway in a lot of places.

Rodenberry's Trek basically says that humanity solved their major problems without religion whatsoever. It was all done by scientific discovery and hard work.

Thanks to technology, there is no hunger, need or want, so people now work to better themselves and the rest of humanity... you have to admit, this plan does sound pretty practical for an advanced society.

If anything, many episodes say that religion is the cause of the problems that humans tried so hard to get out of.

But the downside to this, is that the materialism seems to leave (at least humans) empty. Notice how various spirituality and religious themes keep popping up.

Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.

They needed something to believe in.

up until Chakotay on Voyager, it seemed that while spirituality/faith was fine for non-Human characters(Worf, Kira, etc.) that Humans were generally without it, which is silly.

 

[T'Girl]

Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.

Picard was actually very articulate on the subject in Where Silence Has Lease. When Nagilum in the guise of Data asked Picard about his personal belief concerning death, Picard stated that he did think that the self survived the demise of the flesh.

Picard believes our existence is beyond scientific understanding.

up until Chakotay on Voyager, it seemed that while spirituality/faith was fine for non-Human characters (Worf, Kira, etc.) that Humans were generally without it, which is silly.

TOS didn't seem to have any difficulty in this area, we saw some Human characters with overt sights of faith. Kirk with his "the one" statement made his position clear.

The 24th century series do seem to have more of a problem with it's completely Human characters, and making clear where they stood on faith. Largely we don't know what they believe in, one way or the other.

It was the half Human Deanna who seems to believe in fate (Pen Pals). On Voyager, when a story involved a character having a spiritual revelation (Barge of the Dead), it was the half Human Belanna and not one of her 100% Human shipmates.

They needed something to believe in.

The Federation was neat enough for that purpose.

This is something I have a problem with. It's kind of like the planet with one people, one climate, one culture, one mode of dress. All of the the Federation, and all of Humanity, are not going to have the exact same position on faith, spirituality and organized religion. Some will be pro, some neutral, and some negative.

Somewhere in the 150 plus mix of Member worlds of the Federation, there just might be a "planet Vatican."

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Somewhere in the 150 plus mix of Member worlds of the Federation, there just might be a "planet Vatican."

Be interesting to see William Ware Theiss's version of a nun's habit.

 

[T'Girl]

Latex is alway nice.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.

Picard was actually very articulate on the subject in Where Silence Has Lease. When Nagilum in the guise of Data asked Picard about his personal belief concerning death, Picard stated that he did think that the self survived the demise of the flesh.

Picard believes our existence is beyond scientific understanding.

I thought his answer was somewhat limited and vague, as the most he could come up he felt there may be something more compared to what other people believed--that this is all there is.

It kind of fit in with the materialist and scientific view that many humans and Starfleet officers tend to have had.

When Sisko was asked if he had any gods or higher beliefs, he said, "....there are..things I believe in ..." as if caught in an awkward question.

There seemed to be a lot of reluctance to embrace any higher concepts or religion among humans in Trek.

They needed something to believe in.

The Federation was neat enough for that purpose.

This is something I have a problem with. It's kind of like the planet with one people, one climate, one culture, one mode of dress. All of the the Federation, and all of Humanity, are not going to have the exact same position on faith, spirituality and organized religion. Some will be pro, some neutral, and some negative.[/QUOTE]

There is a certain logic to that though... if people are well fed, healthy, secure, no social problems, no needs or wants, they may not need to rely on religion answers as much anymore--at least that may be what Trek is saying.

 

[TheGoodNews]

In answer to your question, the Spanish Revolution lasted from 1936-1939.

It doesn't seem to have been a stable working system, though.

Again you seem to be drawing rather shortsighted conclusions. It may have been brief but only because it was under heavy siege by multiple forces (i.e. fascism, bolshevism, the Spanish Republic, separatists and the liberal democracies) and yet despite that it did thrive:

"The success of collectivization of industry and commerce impressed even highly unsympathetic observers such as (The Spanish Cockpit author Franz) Borkenau." Noam Chomsky - Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship (from Chomsky on Anarchism)

"The collective expanded normally. There was never any shortage of food, clothing, footwear-in short, life's essentials were in ample supply." The CNT in the Spanish Revolution by Jose Peirats

"There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low; you saw very few conspicuously destitute people, and no beggars except the gypsies. Above all thre was a belief in the revolution and the future, a feeling of having suddenly emerge into an era of equality and freedom. Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the capitalist machine." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia

It must've been pretty durable to achieve all that while being under constant siege from without and within.

But then the reason I pointed out the Argentinean example was because the same social transformation occured during the past decade, but mercifully without the bloodshed of a civil war. And you know what? More than a decade later this social transformation is still happening. In fact, in 2011 the Argentinean workers won a new law that allows workers to take over their places of employment during economic break downs.

"The movement led in 2011 to a new bankruptcy law that facilitates take over by the workers.[16]"

Then there's the moneyless barter networks seen in the documentary "Argentina: Surviving without money." The video mentions that nearly 100k Argentineans participated in these moneyless Barter/Exchange networks and that these moneyless networks were so successful that there was hope of copying them in other South American nations.