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Roddenberry: Dad Would Love ST XI (Shinzon one-dimensional?, etc.)

Shinzon was a fascinating character. It's ridiculous to describe him as "black and white" - his actions, perhaps, but not his nature.

I do hope you were kidding.

Why would s/he be kidding? If his "nature" was evil, his upbringing wouldn't have mattered and neither would've Picard's, so they'd essentially be the same. Other than a common taste for tea and perhaps some innate level of high intelligence, the two were worlds apart in their behavior. Even the way they channeled and developed their intellect(s) was different: military strategist v. diplomat/philosopher/explorer.

When we see two characters with identical genes (identical natures) and such divergent acculturations (mine shafts v. wine vineyards; slavery v. freedom), it's a testament to how environment/nurture ultimately shapes personality and behavior, and to how inherent natural traits (e.g., genes that make one prone to violence) are either activated or suppressed depending on environmental exposure.

By failing to recognize this, the Romulan elite would be absolved from any responsibility for the creation of Shinzon (not the cloning itself, but "creation" as in the person shaped by their systemic exploitation) or from the actions of the Remans in general. Conservatives (i.e., reactionaries) specialize in putting all of the onus for an individual's actions solely upon that individual as if we each exist in a vacuum, thus atomizing individual actors and downplaying the very same status quo systemic factors that they seek to perpetuate. It's a fine line between blaming the victim for his/her own oppression on one hand, and promoting a culture of victimization on the other; unfortunately most people are either firmly in one camp or the other, when the "objective" reality is a sythesis somewhere in the middle.

Romulans put Remans into a subjugated status and debilitating environment, warping their development, and then no doubt turned around and indicted them as being innately inferior and therefore deserving of their own subservience on that "black rock they came from." [Did Remans evolve naturally or were they the product of genetic manipulation/artificial selection?] Anyway, had Earth been destroyed in Nemesis and Shinzon captured, he should've stood trial along side the entire Romulan elite, who would be held partly responsible for the product of their environment (Shinzon) and the NATURE of their system and their social constructions. To mis-attribute Shinzon's actions to his own innate evil ignores the evil of the system that shaped and defined him.

I actually think Logan kind of copped-out and undercut, or ignored, my points when he wrote Data's oversimplified, if not totally individualist, explanation that he and Picard seek to improve themselves while B-4 and Shinzon do not. Shouldn't an android be able to analyze causal factors and "human nature" better than this?

Well, I can only hope Nero is at least as complex as Shinzon, whom I obviously feel is a fascinating character, albeit in a poorly conceptualized and executed movie.
 
Referring to Shinzon as "complex" shows that the person issuing that comment has no concept of the meaning which I say involves a number of emotions and impulses that influence a character, but may not be directly referred to by that character. Unless, of course, by "complex", the speaker is actually meaning "hard to understand". That, I can buy.

It's hard to understand why, if Shinzon needs Picard's blood to survive, he makes the Enterprise wait 18 hours before meeting with Picard. It's hard to understand why Shinzon wants to attack Earth when Romulus was responsible for all of troubles. It's hard to understand why he bothers to waste more precious time mind raping Troi. It's hard to understand why he breaks off mid-battle to taunt Picard via hologram.

Complex? Please. My hair care products are more complex than Shinzon ever was.
 
^ Wow, what's so hard to understand? One can actually dislike a movie and find one if its characters complex. I really hate Nemesis, but Shinzon was an interesting character, albeit executed quite poorly.
 
^ Wow, what's so hard to understand? One can actually dislike a movie and find one if its characters complex. I really hate Nemesis, but Shinzon was an interesting character, albeit executed quite poorly.

So...an interesting character that was executed poorly does not equal a poor character?

You're reaching. You're rationalizing. I commend you for trying to find hope in the hopelessness, but I just don't see where you can justify what you're saying.
 
If they really wanted to do a clone story, and go down the nature-vs-nuture argument, they should've either had Patrick Stewart play Shinzon (in which case he would've earned two paychecks -- SAG rules, started because of the evil twin storylines in soap operas) or gotten Ben Kingsley for the part. Going with some young hunk who, even with subtle prosthetic work from the makeup department, still bears about as much resemblence to Patrick Stewart as Ruth Buzzi (hell, she would've been a better choice) just sort of undermined the whole storyline. It certainly sucked the air out of the big reveal, where we're clearly supposed to be wowed by seeing another Picard in Romulan drag; instead, we're just left sitting there wondering who the bald kid is.

But then again, that dune buggy scene is downright criminal. With all the character building scenes they cut, they kept THAT!?!
 
Going with some young hunk who, even with subtle prosthetic work from the makeup department, still bears about as much resemblence to Patrick Stewart as Ruth Buzzi (hell, she would've been a better choice) ...
You want a Walnetto? [/tyrone f horneigh]
 
The main problem with Shinzon is his irrational hatred for earth/starfleet and everything human........none of the above ever did anything too him, yet in the movie there it is, all that anger and hatred for poor old earth for no reason.

I could never understand that.
 
I had a seance with Gene last night. He told me personally that he hates the new film. He told me the female uniforms are too long, that if this were really Star Trek, they'd show more leg and get him a cup of coffee.
 
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