I agree with this, even though I am a Baptist (but have little use for organizations like the SBC).
Roddenberry and the Biblical Allusions in TOS.
- Thread starter MakeshiftPython
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Yikes. So much for "Hey, you were all reading too much into it."
I'll just mention something I once posted about Biblical references in TOS and the advocates of the "Roddenberry=atheist" missed the following along the way:
In the book Lou Scheimer: Creating the Filmation Generation (pg. 99), Scheimer recalled something telling, which the hardline, "Roddenberry=atheist" group did not know, or choose to ignore:
Gene got to be close to us all at Filmation. I remember when he and Majel barret had their little baby, Eugene Wesley Roddenberry jr., they invited us to the christening. He had a rabbi there, and a Catholic priest, and a Protestant reverend. He said, "There is no way that this kid is not going to go to heaven."
That was not a joke or stunt. Even if one argues that GR's invitation to the reverend, rabbi and priest implied he was not sure--he still moved in a conscious direction of faith the atheist would not even entertain.
With EWR, jr. born in 1974--long after TOS and just at the end of TAS' production, Roddenberry's statement--at one of the most important moments of his life--paints a clear picture that he was not the atheism cheerleader of latter day revisionist accounts, and certainly not during TOS' production. This explains McCoy saying "Lord, forgive me!" a moment before he Phasered "Nancy" in "The Man Trap", or the closing lines about Christ in "Bread and Circuses," which never read like the mere offering of opinion on a parallel event (in the way one would say, "oh, they just invented the car--cool!"), but some kind of deeper recognition/connection.
GR clearly did not like the false god types (Apollo, Gary Mitchell, et al), but TOS was not anti-God, or the series characters having no belief in God (ex. Kirk's line "We find the One quite adequate"), nor was the acknowlegement of the Bible / religon forced on TOS by sponsors or NBC.
Post-TOS advocates for atheism in TOS (such as Braga) have a clear agenda, which has them talking out of their asses. Theirs is an agenda which ignored experiences and 1st hand accounts where GR expressed faith--in order to paint him as the TV producer version of Dawkins
In the book Lou Scheimer: Creating the Filmation Generation (pg. 99), Scheimer recalled something telling, which the hardline, "Roddenberry=atheist" group did not know, or choose to ignore:
Gene got to be close to us all at Filmation. I remember when he and Majel barret had their little baby, Eugene Wesley Roddenberry jr., they invited us to the christening. He had a rabbi there, and a Catholic priest, and a Protestant reverend. He said, "There is no way that this kid is not going to go to heaven."
That was not a joke or stunt. Even if one argues that GR's invitation to the reverend, rabbi and priest implied he was not sure--he still moved in a conscious direction of faith the atheist would not even entertain.
With EWR, jr. born in 1974--long after TOS and just at the end of TAS' production, Roddenberry's statement--at one of the most important moments of his life--paints a clear picture that he was not the atheism cheerleader of latter day revisionist accounts, and certainly not during TOS' production. This explains McCoy saying "Lord, forgive me!" a moment before he Phasered "Nancy" in "The Man Trap", or the closing lines about Christ in "Bread and Circuses," which never read like the mere offering of opinion on a parallel event (in the way one would say, "oh, they just invented the car--cool!"), but some kind of deeper recognition/connection.
GR clearly did not like the false god types (Apollo, Gary Mitchell, et al), but TOS was not anti-God, or the series characters having no belief in God (ex. Kirk's line "We find the One quite adequate"), nor was the acknowlegement of the Bible / religon forced on TOS by sponsors or NBC.
Post-TOS advocates for atheism in TOS (such as Braga) have a clear agenda, which has them talking out of their asses. Theirs is an agenda which ignored experiences and 1st hand accounts where GR expressed faith--in order to paint him as the TV producer version of Dawkins
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According to one of Trek's assorted producers, anyway.
I rather feel like Roddenberry didn't believe in one particular image of God, that man created God in his own image that may not represent what God is. He resisted organized religion and the human pageantry. Probably felt slavish devotion, chanting, singing, and so on were primitive, but the actual existence of a God was not something he resisted. He just didn't believe the way the organizations did.
His main criticism of Star Trek V, IIRC, was that he didn't want everyone to be Catholic or one faith. The "one voice, many faces" was kind of a solution to that.
Roddenberry had his beliefs but there's a difference between being an Athiest and not believing in organized religions.
His main criticism of Star Trek V, IIRC, was that he didn't want everyone to be Catholic or one faith. The "one voice, many faces" was kind of a solution to that.
Roddenberry had his beliefs but there's a difference between being an Athiest and not believing in organized religions.
Yeah -- he was open to spirituality but skeptical of churches as institutions. I think one of the best summaries of Roddenberry's belief was written by Howard Weinstein in the TNG novel Power Hungry, where he had Picard express skepticism "that any structure or philosophy devised by man could ever hope to represent or replicate divinity."
That's the polar opposite of those factions within ST fandom and some who worked on ST series (especially in the Berman era) who repeat the agenda-driven lie that Roddenberry had always been an atheist, and never wanted any religious references (read: Christianity) in TOS at all. Nevermind historical evidence to the contrary, but when some are beating that militant atheist drum, history is tossed out of the window.
Perhaps as an example of most people being more familiar with the Bible through other literature and media than with the book itself: Most of the popular understanding of Satan—his appearance, being a fallen angel, rebelling against God and so on—does not come from the Bible at all, but from other sources, Milton above all. Who's name-checked in "Space Seed," of course.
Pop culture understanding of literature rather than studying the literature itself.
Another example being "Lead on MacDuff," which is a misquote from "Macbeth."
The early church actually was pretty suppressive. In so far as there even was AN early church. It took a while for the orthodox lanes to solidify. But priests, bishops, and monks are chiefly responsible for the destruction of classical literature. Much of it was scraped off parchments to be rewritten with hymns or other Christian material, or heavily redacted to disinclude content deemed contradictory to Christian faith, or simply burnt. The classical authors we do have much of, in the main, were preserved by Muslim scholars in the Eastern Empire and were reintroduced to Europe in the second Millennium by Crusaders returning from Jerusalem. The "major role in preserving literature in scholarship" you mention did happen, but it was a later medieval development after the initial damage had been done.
I do agree with almost all of your position in your post, I'm just pointing out that, though the medieval church gets more blame than it's due for halting the progress of science and literature, the early church was indeed responsible for setting us back. This is a topic I've read on considerably, but I'll leave it there in hopes of not further derailing the thread!
--Alex
Early, yeah, but I'm talking about the extended later period under the misnomer "the Dark Ages." Also, my whole point is that you can't reduce any human institution to a single "good" or "bad" value as if could only ever be one monolithic thing. The fact that many bad things have been done in the name of religion does not erase the fact that many good things have been done in its name as well, and vice-versa. Religion is a tool, and like any tool, it's only as good or bad as its wielders.
Depends on which point in Roddenberry's life you look at. "The All" that is referenced in the novelization of ST: TMP was Roddenberry's belief philosophy at the time of the first movies production, according to his assistant Susan Sackett's book.
I have taken this to be Picard specifically condemning the local group of Mintakan's past beliefs, and not religion in general.
We don't know what Amanda taught, so a possibility.
Good grief.
Is there a pie chart somewhere that compares # of Biblical allusions (in titles, character dialogue) to #s of Greek mythology, Roman mythology, poetry, etc?
I was about to say "Why would someone do that?" then I remembered this is Star Trek. And the internet. So, best of luck.
Could you cite a source for this?
That would require something other than one phase of Roddenberry's life, one that some fans and certain people who worked on ST (Berman era - forward), cling to--meaning the self-conceived fantasy that Roddenberry was a "staunch atheist" throughout his life. That little something called research blows that out of the water.
You are not kidding.
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Let us know when you've finished with this project.
I bet there was a write up in TREK some time ago:
https://stexpanded.fandom.com/wiki/The_Best_of_Trek
A nice blurb here
https://www.ditl.org/article-page.php?ArticleID=8&ListID=Articles
https://stexpanded.fandom.com/wiki/The_Best_of_Trek
A nice blurb here
https://www.ditl.org/article-page.php?ArticleID=8&ListID=Articles
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