Robert Holmes, Terry Nation, and nuWho

[Joel_Kirk]

Robert Holmes is considered to be one of the best(?) writers of Who. He did write some of my favorite episode, including:

*'The Krotons' (which is also my favorite since Zoe looks cute/hot in her outfit).
*'The Two Doctors' (which is also my favorite since Peri looks cute/hot in her outfit).

'The Sun Makers,' 'Ark in Space,' and 'Carnival of Monsters' are other interesting episodes.

What were some of the recurring themes or tropes in Holmes' episodes? And, do you think that Holmes could have adapted to nuWho? (A series that was rebooted in tone to a more energetic feel, and - IMO - sometimes crammed too much in an hour, where the 'classic' episodes padded certain stories out in various parts).

Terry Nation is a notable writer who, of course, did Blake's 7. And, I also wondered if his 'style' could be adapted to nuWho? (And when I say 'adapted,' I'm talking about whatever tropes that show up in Nation-penned episodes). Nation wrote for MacGyver, so he knows 'action,' albeit it's 80s action.

 

[Mr Awe]

I think Holmes could've adapted very well to the modern show. Just look at Caves of Androzani, a thoroughly modern story (also thanks to Harper's great directing). I would've loved to have seen a new Who story by Robert Holmes.

Terry Nation, not so sure about him with new Who.

Mr Awe

 

[diankra]

Holmes: double acts, wordplay, impatience at bureaucracy (interestingly, Holmes was in the police before becoming a journalist, and the army before that).
Nation: jungles, 'surprise' Daleks at the end of episode one, vegetation so hositle that 'it's alive!'...

 

[JoeZhang]

Could Nation adopt his one story idea? hum...

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Could Nation adopt his one story idea? hum...

Which story idea was that?

 

[Rarewolf]

Could Nation adopt his one story idea? hum...

He created Survivors and Blake's 7 too.

 

[The Wormhole]

'surprise' Daleks at the end of episode one,

To be fair, that one is a common Dalek trope regardless who the writer is. RTD even did it with Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways and Army of Ghosts/Doomsday.

Could Nation adopt his one story idea? hum...

Which story idea was that?

It refers to the belief that all Terry Nation's scripts are basically telling the same story. Which they kind of are.

 

[diankra]

There's an old joke about how someone told Terry Nation when he started out that there were only seven plots, so he decided that if he was going to have to repeat himself on script eight he might as well do it on script two (and he did get caught out for it, actually; he once rewrote one of his old Saint scripts for The Baron, which was fine until they were rerun back-to-back, so viewers got a bit of a feeling of deja vu).

The more subtle version is that Nation actually did come up with seven really good, original pieces of work, so he can be forgiven for all the other repetition (my seven would be The Daleks, Genesis, the first episode of Survivors, B7: The Way Back and Terminal, The Incredible Robert Baldick and his episode of the ITV Hancock. All very good and effective. Some of his Avengers are pretty nice too).
He was a hack who could also be brilliant, basically. But would be lazy if allowed to get away with it.

 

[sidious618]

Holmes would definitely fit in with the new series and RTD actually said that if Holmes was alive he'd have him writing for the new show. I think Nation would be a no-go.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

'surprise' Daleks at the end of episode one,

To be fair, that one is a common Dalek trope regardless who the writer is. RTD even did it with Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways and Army of Ghosts/Doomsday.

I do think the Daleks are overused nuWho.

Could Nation adopt his one story idea? hum...

Which story idea was that?

It refers to the belief that all Terry Nation's scripts are basically telling the same story. Which they kind of are.

There's an old joke about how someone told Terry Nation when he started out that there were only seven plots, so he decided that if he was going to have to repeat himself on script eight he might as well do it on script two (and he did get caught out for it, actually; he once rewrote one of his old Saint scripts for The Baron, which was fine until they were rerun back-to-back, so viewers got a bit of a feeling of deja vu).

The more subtle version is that Nation actually did come up with seven really good, original pieces of work, so he can be forgiven for all the other repetition (my seven would be The Daleks, Genesis, the first episode of Survivors, B7: The Way Back and Terminal, The Incredible Robert Baldick and his episode of the ITV Hancock. All very good and effective. Some of his Avengers are pretty nice too).
He was a hack who could also be brilliant, basically. But would be lazy if allowed to get away with it.

Learn something new everyday.

He did have a good talent for writing, I think. (Although, my basis for that opinion is from "Blake's 7," which did seem to change in tone once he - Nation - left the show). Too, I'm still curious about "Survivors."

 

[Cutter John]

Yeah, Nation was a good writer when he set his mind to it. I just think the problem was he thought of the Daleks as just a paycheck, and tended to phone in his stories.

 

[DWF]

Robert Holmes seemed to like The Phantom Of The Opera he added elements of it in at least three of his stories(The Deadly Assassin, The Talons Of Weng Chiang and The Caves Of Androzani), He also like his duel acts and I also liked the general gothic feel to some of his stories.

I liked the serious tone of Blake's 7 and I think that came from Terry Nation and the rest of the prodeuction staff. But I do think that like Terrence Dicks, Terry Nation knew how to make entertaining stories.

 

[Rarewolf]

. I think Nation would be a no-go.

Given that they had enough trouble with the Nation Estate in getting the Daleks to appear, I'd imagine he'd have found a way to persuade them.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Robert Holmes seemed to like The Phantom Of The Opera he added elements of it in at least three of his stories(The Deadly Assassin, The Talons Of Weng Chiang and The Caves Of Androzani), He also like his duel acts and I also liked the general gothic feel to some of his stories.

I liked the serious tone of Blake's 7 and I think that came from Terry Nation and the rest of the prodeuction staff. But I do think that like Terrence Dicks, Terry Nation knew how to make entertaining stories.

I've seen a couple of posters mention 'double acts.' Does that refer to characters who are seemingly on the side of the 'heroes' but turn out to be working for the villains?

 

[diankra]

Too, I'm still curious about "Survivors."

Survivors is the project he really cared about: he said that when asked why he'd written a novel version of Survivors, but let other people do his Who and Blake scripts.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Too, I'm still curious about "Survivors."

Survivors is the project he really cared about: he said that when asked why he'd written a novel version of Survivors, but let other people do his Who and Blake scripts.

Interesting...!

 

[The Wormhole]

Robert Holmes seemed to like The Phantom Of The Opera he added elements of it in at least three of his stories(The Deadly Assassin, The Talons Of Weng Chiang and The Caves Of Androzani), He also like his duel acts and I also liked the general gothic feel to some of his stories.

I liked the serious tone of Blake's 7 and I think that came from Terry Nation and the rest of the prodeuction staff. But I do think that like Terrence Dicks, Terry Nation knew how to make entertaining stories.

I've seen a couple of posters mention 'double acts.' Does that refer to characters who are seemingly on the side of the 'heroes' but turn out to be working for the villains?

No, it just refers to two characters who almost always appear together, or as TV Tropes calls it "Those Two Guys."

Almost all Robert Holmes scripts feature this, most famously Jago and Litefoot in The Talons of Weng-Chiang.

 

[diankra]

Robert Holmes seemed to like The Phantom Of The Opera he added elements of it in at least three of his stories(The Deadly Assassin, The Talons Of Weng Chiang and The Caves Of Androzani), He also like his duel acts and I also liked the general gothic feel to some of his stories.

I liked the serious tone of Blake's 7 and I think that came from Terry Nation and the rest of the prodeuction staff. But I do think that like Terrence Dicks, Terry Nation knew how to make entertaining stories.

I've seen a couple of posters mention 'double acts.' Does that refer to characters who are seemingly on the side of the 'heroes' but turn out to be working for the villains?

No, it just refers to two characters who almost always appear together, or as TV Tropes calls it "Those Two Guys."

Almost all Robert Holmes scripts feature this, most famously Jago and Litefoot in The Talons of Weng-Chiang.

And have a comic chemistry, even when not together (as a side note, Jago and Litefoot don't meet till episode five of Talons, yet they gel almost instantly).

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Robert Holmes seemed to like The Phantom Of The Opera he added elements of it in at least three of his stories(The Deadly Assassin, The Talons Of Weng Chiang and The Caves Of Androzani), He also like his duel acts and I also liked the general gothic feel to some of his stories.

I liked the serious tone of Blake's 7 and I think that came from Terry Nation and the rest of the prodeuction staff. But I do think that like Terrence Dicks, Terry Nation knew how to make entertaining stories.

I've seen a couple of posters mention 'double acts.' Does that refer to characters who are seemingly on the side of the 'heroes' but turn out to be working for the villains?

No, it just refers to two characters who almost always appear together, or as TV Tropes calls it "Those Two Guys."

Almost all Robert Holmes scripts feature this, most famously Jago and Litefoot in The Talons of Weng-Chiang.

I've seen a couple of posters mention 'double acts.' Does that refer to characters who are seemingly on the side of the 'heroes' but turn out to be working for the villains?

No, it just refers to two characters who almost always appear together, or as TV Tropes calls it "Those Two Guys."

Almost all Robert Holmes scripts feature this, most famously Jago and Litefoot in The Talons of Weng-Chiang.

And have a comic chemistry, even when not together (as a side note, Jago and Litefoot don't meet till episode five of Talons, yet they gel almost instantly).

I think I understand. (It's been awhile since I've seen those episodes to remember them - that particular trope - off the top of my head). I guess it's kind of like the two older Muppet characters (I forget their names) from "The Muppet Show" who are always up in a balcony and commenting on the goings on in the episode.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've seen a couple of posters mention 'double acts.' Does that refer to characters who are seemingly on the side of the 'heroes' but turn out to be working for the villains?

No, it just refers to two characters who almost always appear together, or as TV Tropes calls it "Those Two Guys."

Almost all Robert Holmes scripts feature this, most famously Jago and Litefoot in The Talons of Weng-Chiang.

No, it just refers to two characters who almost always appear together, or as TV Tropes calls it "Those Two Guys."

Almost all Robert Holmes scripts feature this, most famously Jago and Litefoot in The Talons of Weng-Chiang.

And have a comic chemistry, even when not together (as a side note, Jago and Litefoot don't meet till episode five of Talons, yet they gel almost instantly).

I think I understand. (It's been awhile since I've seen those episodes to remember them - that particular trope - off the top of my head). I guess it's kind of like the two older Muppet characters (I forget their names) from "The Muppet Show" who are always up in a balcony and commenting on the goings on in the episode.

Yep, that's it exactly.