Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by The Overlord, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. locutus101

    locutus101 Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    In a manner of speaking. We all share that same "death sentence". The question is: What right do they have to hog not only a planet but its surroundings and thus depriving billions of a cure to their diseases.
     
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The Federation could not keep the secret of immortality to themselves, because sneaky Romulans are everywhere and sweaty Klingons are willing to pay for even the flimsiest intelligence with hours of forbidden sex...

    Give the same Klingon Warlord a billion years, and humanity will only be something you find at the Zoo, and most of the rest of galaxy will be stock released to hunt as well.
     
  3. Triskelion

    Triskelion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    I always found it confusing when they would apply the PD to warp-capable races, such as the Automated Units of Prototype:

    It was my understanding that once a planetary species reached warp, they had sufficiently unified, and were ready for interplanetary interactions as a single unit (where pre-warp divisions would certainly mean internal conflict/destruction by abuses of technology, cultural contamination or militarization/organization). Warp represented a kind of litmus for advancement since, presumably, a race couldn't achieve it without unifying planetary resources - beyond the capabilities of mere nation-states. (A convenient plot point in itself).

    It just seems that you'd have a different set of standards for dealing with warp-capable species. You're not contaminating them, your interacting with them now, because they "know themselves" well enough to ask for things like "help", "asylum", or "trade".
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The Federation only allows itself to give foreign species technology comparable to what they can make for themselves, or help them in any way only that they could help themelves.

    It's about maintaining the balance of power.

    The balance of power is what keeps political, military, technological, financial and philosophical "domination and oppression" of the galactic powers and by the galactic powers and to the galactic powers consistent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  5. Triskelion

    Triskelion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    What right do you have to lock your door when there are legions of homeless in the world, comrade?

    For some socieities, rights are automatically conferred by the state (and sometimes higher authorities) - not a privilege. For example, in the west, if you write a book - it is already protected by copyright law. Now, it is your loss if you can't prove you wrote it, by registering it - but the right itself is that it is your individual protected property. This gives you the right to sue - and win -damages. Your intrinsic rights preempt subsequent claims.

    The Ba'Ku may have no policies about property, but the Fed itself does. Claiming the Ba'Ku planet for itself violates the Fed's authorized mandate. Its available, non-punishable actions are limited and held accountable, you see. It is a theft, under the Fed's own definition. That is a problem for actual law-abiding societies (that are not hotbeds of corruption and bribery) - where rational law replaces "culturally-relativistic", laissez-faire, "rationale law".

    Some societies apply their laws and punishments more consistently than others. Easy to condemn, but hard to evade consequences - which is also an inexorable charcteristic of rational law, all so easy to overlook when you're not looking beyond rationalizing self-service in the first place. Oops, other concerns in the world besides one's own belly - and "face". Rights aren't the secret opinions of officials. They are de facto, punishable legal limits; in this case, of a publicly-accountable, informed civilian authority.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Here's the problem with the Briar Patch.

    It's inside Federation Space.

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Sector_441

    So it's like Othello (the game, not the play, or biscuit.).

    Colonizing the Baku "homeworld" is technically an invasion, and the Federation has immigration laws to decide who is allowed to settle inside their borders, even if those borders did not exist when the Baku arrived on Baku in 2066.

    Relocation of a non-native species is a yawn.

    The relocation of immortal near space gods with super science actually brings the Prime Directive back into play if the Baku are significantly more advanced than the Federation, which the Sonar are not, so I doubt the Baku are, who have not progressed technically since 2066.

    Civilizations that have not invented Transwarp(or maybe Slipstream) should not be interferred with by cultures that have invented Tramswarp(or Slipstream), and warp capable cultures trying to pick a fight with a transwarp capable culture should lose quickly and completely.

    Yes, the Borg.

    Exactly.

    The Federation got lucky.
     
  7. locutus101

    locutus101 Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    First, it's not their homeworld, it's just one they happened to stumble upon. Second, the resource is not on the world in question it's in outer space. Third, they occupy only a minuscule fraction of the world in question.

    So what right do they have to monopolize a resource that's not even on the planet they're occupying? Do they own the entire solar system, the constellation, the whole galaxy? Where does it stop?
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Plant a flag, plant a few flags, plant a lot of flags and wait to see if anyone gets pissy that you ignored their flags that they put there a century earlier. That's generally how it works.
     
  9. Triskelion

    Triskelion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    If the Fed is so right in its actions - in its own estimation - then why the secrecy? Why the subterfuge?

    They know they are acting extra-judiciously, again, by their own definitions. Not the Ba'Ku's, not mine, not yours, not anyone else's.

    I will leave the dashed border lines up to the writers and needs of plot - and of course, the evidential claims of interested parties.
     
  10. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Hard to figure out that one, but the Federation knows from the Sona that the Baku (despite their life style) are a technologically advanced people.

    The subterfuge may have been simply the Federation showing a reasonable amount of caution.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The Sonar didn't tell Admiral Beardo ####.

    Data went crazy, and one of these seemingly 15th century savages helped fix him.

    Harvesting immortality was a secret, benevolently relocating the Baku for trumped up reasons was the play on the table.

    Even if the Baku weren't postwarp, a civil war is a no-no under the non-interference policy, which may or may not be the prime directive, just like the Federation was not allowed to get involved in the Klingon Civil War until they could prove that the House of Duras was a Romulan puppet.
     
  12. locutus101

    locutus101 Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    Picard was willing to beam the Native Americans forcefully off their planet in case they refused to go willingly. His stance here is incomprehensible unless he despises mortal human beings and prefers snobby egotistic immortal aliens.
     
  13. Paradise City

    Paradise City Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Picard has always been big on 'preserving the peace'. So with the Indian episode, there was a treaty in the balance. And Picard does seem traumatised as to what he's required to do in that episode. Although I think his behaviour was still deplorable. There was none of those stakes though in Insurrection.
     
  14. locutus101

    locutus101 Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    The welfare of billions of people against the immortality of a few hundreds! That's not enough at stake for you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Hi, we're going to make you immortal, but you'll be infertile.

    It's not that your plumbing will stop working, it's that your stuff, your seeds or eggs are also immortal, and are never going to get any older than they are now.

    If you have a foetus inside you when we begin the treatment, that foetus will be immortal inside you forever like a fish in a tank paddling around.

    So, I'm going to give you a shot in the arm, and then you'll be immortal, cool?
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    If he didn't evict the Native Americans, Starfleet would take his ship for negligence and dereliction of duty.

    The elders objection to going seemed like an afterthought, I think I heard one of them say "fuck it" under his breath because as much as they hated being deported from their homes, it was considered and expected that they hated Cardassians more.

    ####sucking spoon head mother ####ers.

    Okies Locutus, lets imagine that you lived in Texas, and for some reason The US Congress decided to return Texas to the Mexicans. Would you stay or go? Would you want to be Mexican? Would the Mexican's enjoy your company or ask you to leave? Would they respect your property rights? You may think that you own a house and some land, but when they show up, your new overlords will inform you that you are a transient vagrant who should move along because your American deeds to land in America don't mean shit now that you're standing on Mexican soil.

    Picard was taking the Native Americans to maybe a Starbase, because the Cardassian built internment camps to render the human beings into soap where not going to be a good place to bring up children.

    Although considering how easily Picard managed to arrange cardassian Citizenship for the locals, you have to wonder why someone else hadn't thought of that during the last 16 months, if shooting Enterprise crewmen seemed like avalable plan effect a sit in.
     
  17. Paradise City

    Paradise City Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    What age was Admiral McCoy in Encounter at Farpoint? The Feds don't have a medical problem.
     
  18. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    There could be but that scenario has occurred so rarely (maybe just the two episodes "Pen Pals" and "Homeward") I don't see how it's a big problem or the next series is likely to have those kinds of scenarios or episodes and be hurt by them.

    If it's done too easily, without any punishment, it increases the likelihood it would be done in less justifiable circumstances.

    A lot of people want superheroes to kill the villains, that doesn't mean writers going along with it would make for good or consistent characters or stories. In any case the Trek heroes generally haven't been too constrained from taking action and they're very willing to give help when the other society asks for it.


    We don't know how often or wisely other captains have violated it. In any case violating the Prime Directive is a serious issue but not one that automatically leads to expulsion or imprisonment so Starfleet already knows there can be appropriate exceptions. But I don't think Starfleet should give its captains total benefit of the doubt or blank checks.

    I think the shows established disease was very rare and science hugely advanced and lifespans very long so it felt like the Federation was just trying to live more youthfully and was more rather than less selfish than the inhabitants (who seemed to have no objection to the many people who would benefit from the planet coming to the planet, at least welcoming back the Sona who wouldn't be violent).

    Aside from that Picard was very reluctant to do so and eventually able to find an alternative, they were Federation citizens and the removal was, the diplomats and leaders thought, necessary to prevent re-starting a war between the Federation and Cardassians; eminent domain, though I don't like it, feels different and better than outright theft and preventing resumption of a war a better justification than living even longer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  19. locutus101

    locutus101 Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    What are you talking about?
     
  20. locutus101

    locutus101 Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    That reminds me of a Joke. A famous actress (although I can't remember her name) was opposed to smoking (that was a long time ago, everybody smoked by then) and someone once told her: "My grandfather is 85 and he smokes like a chimney."
    And she said: "If he didn't smoke, he'd be even older."