"Rise": The utility of lying in a crisis...

[Ragitsu]

Good afternoon.

Do you believe that Neelix was in the wrong when he gave a false impression of competency? Should he have come clean with Tuvok (perhaps in private?) when the idea to fix the orbital tether's carriage popped into his head? I can imagine the exchange going something like this ->

NEELIX: "...and the principles that determine their operation are alike in every way that matters. I know I can do this; I just need a chance."
TUVOK: "Mister Neelix, no matter the similarity, the fact remains that you have had no practical experience maintaining orbital conveyances designed to carry people. The risk inherent with such improvisation is too great."
NEELIX (heated): "I would never give a false impression just to appear competent! I would never place my ego before the well-being of others."
TUVOK: "Even if that were true, you may still provide me with an incorrect assessment through no fault of your own. What one believes to be valid and that which is truly valid are not always the same. Our best chance of rescue is to choose the most prudent course of action...and in this instance, that does not include risking our lives with skills that may prove inadequate when unforeseen difficulties arise."

 

[at Quark's]

Neelix: But, Sir. Since I've come aboard your Federation vessel, I've learned many Starfleet engineering principles from your crew! One of them being that as long as you keep inserting words such as 'quantum', 'matrix', 'alignment', 'triangulation' and 'encrypted' and other such words in any random order, whatever you come up with will actually work!

(sorry, couldn't resist). And yes, I think he should have been open to Tuvok from the start, despite his enthusiasm. As Tuvok is the one in command and therefore the one who would decide, he should be in possession of all the relevant facts.

 

[XweAponX]

Good afternoon.

Do you believe that Neelix was in the wrong when he gave a false impression of competency? Should he have come clean with Tuvok (perhaps in private?) when the idea to fix the orbital tether's carriage popped into his head? I can imagine the exchange going something like this ->

You know what “rise“ was, don’t you?

it was a take on “flight of the Phoenix“

The original James Stewart version and even the remake from 2004 with Dennis Quaid and Miranda Otto.

it wasn’t that Neelix was actually lying, he did in fact have the knowledge to be able to repair the lift and maintain it. Just like the guy in flight of the Phoenix was qualified to actually create a new airplane out of the remains of the original.

Rise was basically an homage to that film. I enjoyed that episode quite a lot actually. The person who was actually lying, was the government representative that was with them in the lift… and he got what was coming to him. He “returned to the surface“, that scene where he falls out of the door is extremely creepy… it makes me shudder, I am extremely frightened of heights, and to watch that scene just makes me grip my armchair.

 

[Finn]

Good afternoon.

Do you believe that Neelix was in the wrong when he gave a false impression of competency? Should he have come clean with Tuvok (perhaps in private?) when the idea to fix the orbital tether's carriage popped into his head? I can imagine the exchange going something like this ->

Yanno, he was insecure like that the first three seasons, it's part of his persona in these days....trying to make himself seem more knowledgeable and important than he think he is. This wasn't the first time he made such claims about his past.

 

[somebuddyX]

I can't remember this episode, so I say..............yes.

 

[Ragitsu]

You know what “rise“ was, don’t you?

it was a take on “flight of the Phoenix“

The original James Stewart version and even the remake from 2004 with Dennis Quaid and Miranda Otto.

The 2004 remake is worth a watch, in my opinion. I cannot speak to the original .

it wasn’t that Neelix was actually lying, he did in fact have the knowledge to be able to repair the lift and maintain it. Just like the guy in flight of the Phoenix was qualified to actually create a new airplane out of the remains of the original.

Even "exaggeration" is an understatement; it wasn't as if Neelix worked for, say, one month on actual orbital carriages.

Yanno, he was insecure like that the first three seasons, it's part of his persona in these days....trying to make himself seem more knowledgeable and important than he think he is. This wasn't the first time he made such claims about his past.

"Rise" takes place after "Fair Trade"; you would think Neelix would have learned a rather important lesson.

I can't remember this episode, so I say..............yes.

It's a fun enough adventure. Any script that features Tuvok kicking butt is good, in my opinion.

 

[Finn]

"Rise" takes place after "Fair Trade"; you would think Neelix would have learned a rather important lesson.

Are you saying it's unrealistic for people to carry on some old habits well after an incident where the bad habit made things worse...?

 

[Ragitsu]

Are you saying it's unrealistic for people to carry on some old habits well after an incident where the bad habit made things worse...?

I would hope that someone takes strict measures to correct a character flaw that could result in severe injuries or even the death of others...especially in the generally optimistic future of Star Trek.

(sorry, couldn't resist). And yes, I think he should have been open to Tuvok from the start, despite his enthusiasm. As Tuvok is the one in command and therefore the one who would decide, he should be in possession of all the relevant facts.

Yep. Despite his pragmatic mien, I feel as though Tuvok would have respected him for his honesty (even if he found Neelix's accompanying unfettered enthusiasm a touch grating).

 

[Finn]

God, I hope not....at least not enforced like the way you seem to be suggesting.

 

[Ragitsu]

God, I hope not....at least not enforced like the way you seem to be suggesting.

Why shouldn't a person correct their behavior? What suggestion?

 

[Finn]

Why shouldn't a person correct their behavior? What suggestion?

The tone seemed to suggest enforcement by the UFP or the society on the individual, at least when I first read it. I apologize if you didn't mean that.

But again, Neelix didn't grow up in the UFP and he likely had nobody to help him deal with losing his family- I'm not so sure Kes really helped as much as he needed.

 

[XweAponX]

Even "exaggeration" is an understatement; it wasn't as if Neelix worked for, say, one month on actual orbital carriages.

but neelix did in fact get them up in the air and kept the unit in repair well enough. Plus without him Tuvix was stuck outside. Lie, Exaggeration, or not, Neelix got Tuvix back to voyager with the shield Freq’s to blast those invaders. It was the Tuvix and Neelix show, just like when Tuvix solves a cloaking freq anomaly - on top of a cake….

Neelix was the opposite of Tuvix, they had been connected since the pilot episode. Exaggerating was Neelix special talent, he was able to fake his way into any situation. I admired that character trait.

and whether or not be ever worked on actual orbital tethers, he knew enough to get it working.

which is exactly what happened in the flight of the Phoenix… you really ought to find the James Stewart version, it is mighty fine…

 

[Ragitsu]

Tuvix?

 

[Summer Solstice]

Yanno, he was insecure like that the first three seasons, it's part of his persona in these days....trying to make himself seem more knowledgeable and important than he think he is. This wasn't the first time he made such claims about his past.

I would hope that someone takes strict measures to correct a character flaw that could result in severe injuries or even the death of others...especially in the generally optimistic future of Star Trek.

This episode was about 6 weeks after Fair Trade. I think Fair Trade was the first time that Neelix realised that he isn't going to be forced to leave Voyager because he's not useful enough. However I'm not sure that 6 weeks is long enough for Neelix to truely understand that on an emotional level and I would be more surprised if he was honest with Tuvok.

Do I think Neelix should have been honest with Tuvok? Yes, definitely. But it's not in character for him at that point in the show.

 

[XweAponX]

Tuvix?

I always refer to Tuvok as Tuvix…

 

[Ragitsu]

This episode was about 6 weeks after Fair Trade.

Six weeks? From where did you get that figure? I thought that - two-parters aside - there may not always be precisely one week of "Voyager time" between each episode as they aired in reality (leaning towards more rather than less). Then again, maybe two or two-and-a-half months isn't enough time for him to make headway on a personal course correction of this nature.

 

[Summer Solstice]

Six weeks? From where did you get that figure? I thought that - two-parters aside - there may not always be precisely one week of "Voyager time" between each episode as they aired in reality (leaning towards more rather than less). Then again, maybe two or two-and-a-half months isn't enough time for him to make headway on a personal course correction of this nature.

Just that Rise is 6 episodes after Fair Trade. 6 weeks is a guess.

 

[Lynx]

Good afternoon.

Do you believe that Neelix was in the wrong when he gave a false impression of competency? Should he have come clean with Tuvok (perhaps in private?) when the idea to fix the orbital tether's carriage popped into his head? I can imagine the exchange going something like this ->

Yes, he should!

He should have told Tuvok from the start that he only had experience of models, not "the real thing".
If he had done that, he wouldn't have looked like an idiot when it all was revealed.

But one of Neelix's problems was that he was so eager to please and show his imporance to the crew that he often exaggerated his skills and knowledge of the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Lynx]

Just that Rise is 6 episodes after Fair Trade. 6 weeks is a guess.

According to my calculations, the events in Fair Trade took place at Stardate 50450 (Thursday 14 June 2373) and the events in Rise took place at Stardate 50732.4 (Monday 17 September).

Please visit The Kes Website and the pages Voyager Timeline, Episode Guide and Voyager Maps for further information.

 

[Summer Solstice]

According to my calculations, the events in Fair Trade took place at Stardate 50450 (Thursday 14 June 2373) and the events in Rise took place at Stardate 50732.4 (Monday 17 September).

Please visit The Kes Website and the pages Voyager Timeline, Episode Guide and Voyager Maps for further information.

Thank you!