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Riker's promotions

AlboOfBorg

Commander
Red Shirt
Ok so with Riker turning down the captain's chair at least 3 or 4 times during TNG, couldn't Riker's superior officers just FORCE him into promotion? Riker was captain material as of early in the show, and after the losses at Wolf 359, couldn't Starfleet have ordered him to take a ship to command? How could he turn down a promotion to the rank of Captain at the end of Best of Both Worlds part II? As a military officer wouldn't you be required to obey your superior officer's command to take a promotion? Why would a rank promotion be a voluntary thing? Am I missing something here? :confused:
 
I think your assumption that Starfleet is just like a 21st Century military is flawed. It's apparent that "up or out" is not the case in Starfleet. And why should it be? I think the existence of some gray-haired background ensigns and lieutenants indicates that Starfleet is willing to allow their personnel to move through their career at their own pace. It could also indicate that, given the longer lifespan expected in the 24th Century, that moving personnel up at the same rate as today is unnecessary. No one retires at age 65 in the 2300s, so why bother moving Riker (or any other commander) up to captain if he (or she, or it) doesn't want to?
 
I think your assumption that Starfleet is just like a 21st Century military is flawed. It's apparent that "up or out" is not the case in Starfleet.

I would agree with this. It is even backed up by Spock's line in TWOK that it was a mistake for Kirk to have "accepted" promotion. This implies that Kirk had the option of turning down the promotion to Admiral.
 
Ok so with Riker turning down the captain's chair at least 3 or 4 times during TNG, couldn't Riker's superior officers just FORCE him into promotion? Riker was captain material as of early in the show, and after the losses at Wolf 359, couldn't Starfleet have ordered him to take a ship to command? How could he turn down a promotion to the rank of Captain at the end of Best of Both Worlds part II? As a military officer wouldn't you be required to obey your superior officer's command to take a promotion? Why would a rank promotion be a voluntary thing? Am I missing something here?

That was a really un-credible aspect of TNG and very bad for the Riker character. AlboOfBorg is correct, being placed in command is an order. In "Chain of Command" we see a Starfleet change of command ceremony, and the language in the orders is basically the same as the 19th century Royal Navy: the officer is "requested and required" to take his post. Refusing an assignment, in effect repudiating superior officers' judgment as well as their confidence, sounds like a pretty effective career-killer.

Of course, TNG supposes otherwise, but this was a cheap way to generate some suspense in some episodes (but not much; did anyone really think Riker would accept and leave?) at the expense of Riker's character. He was supposed to be a high-flying, driven officer on the rise. Him refusing his own command made him an also-ran, a follower. Obviously, a TV show wants to keep its cast together and can't have them rotating out for different assignments. But it would have been better if the whole issue was never raised, and we were able to assume Riker was serving a fairly normal period as an XO. Instead, they had to make it a big issue, and strain credulity.

I think your assumption that Starfleet is just like a 21st Century military is flawed. It's apparent that "up or out" is not the case in Starfleet. And why should it be?

That sounds nice, but it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. You have a finite number of starships, with x-number of jobs for commanders, and y-number of junior officers who want to be promoted and move into positions of greater responsibility. Can you really expect to develop good up-and-coming officers when their progress is blocked by officers who prefer to stay in the same comfortable billet year after year?

I think the existence of some gray-haired background ensigns and lieutenants indicates that Starfleet is willing to allow their personnel to move through their career at their own pace.

Or they followed a different career path. Perhaps they were commissioned form the ranks? If anyone saw the recent "Carrier" mini-series on PBS, they may have noticed a late-thirties ensign in air traffic control and a JG of similar age running the watch in the CDC. The former-enlisted limited duty officers are a real wealth of technical know-how in the USN.

It could also indicate that, given the longer lifespan expected in the 24th Century, that moving personnel up at the same rate as today is unnecessary. No one retires at age 65 in the 2300s, so why bother moving Riker (or any other commander) up to captain if he (or she, or it) doesn't want to?

That (letting officers stay around as long as they want) has already been tried in the real world and has worked out terribly. It leads to slow promotion, dissatisfaction among motivated officers, too much satisfaction among bad officers, high turnover in the junior ranks, low morale, rivalries, pettiness, and generally poor performance in wartime until the dead wood is thinned out.

Yes, it obviously works somehow and the TNG Starfleet is a big happy family. But believable it's not.

--Justin
 
Quite an interesting topic.

It was asked at another forum whether or not Riker's character had essentially ran its course when he turned down his third offer of command - The USS Melbourne in BoBW.
 
People,

I agree with Pavonis. Starfleet has many similarities to today's military, and differences as well. Several characters like Picard and Riker have all said Starfleet isn't a strictly military organization.

Now, Riker refusing promotion probably was a career killer. Admiral Hansen noted that when he said there were "a lot of young hotshots" like Shelby who were ready to pass Riker by. And it did happen, until finally, years after being offered the Melbourne, he got the Titan assignment.

Let me point to an analogy that isn't quite apt. At one time, discipline was enforced on naval ships with whips. That no longer occurs. Similarly, Starfleet probably doesn't force officers to accept promotion, unlike in our current armed forces.

I do agree with one of J.T.B.'s points, that it did stretch credibility that an up-and-comer like Riker didn't accept promotion, despite the dialogue in BOBW, Pt. 1, indicating he was comfortable as Enterprise's first officer.

For the record, I do believe Riker passed up four commands before accepting Titan: Drake, Aries, Melbourne, and I believe, Voyager, too.

Taking that into consideation, it might have been interesting if Riker were assigned to Deep Space Nine as some kind of punishment for refusing three commands. Would have added a layer of bitterness, then redemption, as that command then became important because of the wormhole.

Red Ranger
 
Riker wasn't offered the USS Voyager. Q only thought he would have been offered it. You are right about the other three ships though.

Seeing Riker command DS9 would have been interesting (or Voyager) :techman:

Another thing I wondered was, that if the newly promoted Commander Riker had taken command of the USS Drake in 2364, would he have been the CO with a rank of Commander? Perhaps so.

Picard took command of the USS Stargazer with the rank of Lt. Commander, so its likely he was also eventually promoted to Commander and then Captain while still being CO anyway.
 
Riker wasn't offered the USS Voyager. Q only thought he would have been offered it. You are right about the other three ships though.

Seeing Riker command DS9 would have been interesting (or Voyager) :techman:

Another thing I wondered was, that if the newly promoted Commander Riker had taken command of the USS Drake in 2364, would he have been the CO with a rank of Commander? Perhaps so.

Picard took command of the USS Stargazer with the rank of Lt. Commander, so its likely he was also eventually promoted to Commander and then Captain while still being CO anyway.

Sean:

Yes, you're right. I had the impression he was offered Voyager, but your memory of what Q actually said rings truer than mine.

I also wanted to mention something a bit annoying about the ST shows. With the exception of DSN, all the starship captains were of the actual rank of captain, when as many people know, you can have the rank of lieutenant commander but the position of a ship's captain. So it would have been interesting if Janeway had also been a full commander.

I think you're also right Riker would have been a full commander as captain of the Drake, although his friend Paul Rice was a full captain -- he had four pips on his uniform. After all, I believe Riker was a lieutenant commander when he was first officer of the Hood, from what Picard says in BOBW, Pt. 1, "Sounds like a young lt. cmdr I recruited to become my first officer."

Red Ranger
 
That was a really un-credible aspect of TNG and very bad for the Riker character.

I agree. As I recall, the original premise of TNG had them on a 10-year mission. There shouldn't have been any mention of Riker moving on before the end of the mission.

Can you really expect to develop good up-and-coming officers when their progress is blocked by officers who prefer to stay in the same comfortable billet year after year?

Apparently, yes, according to Starfleet.

Perhaps they were commissioned form the ranks? If anyone saw the recent "Carrier" mini-series on PBS, they may have noticed a late-thirties ensign in air traffic control and a JG of similar age running the watch in the CDC. The former-enlisted limited duty officers are a real wealth of technical know-how in the USN.

Also possible. I also have imagined that some people in the 24th Century, after spending several decades in one career might decide to offer their experience to Starfleet, at the same time getting a chance to see the universe and give back to their society (rather like joining the Peace Corps). They wouldn't necessarily be concerned with their rank as such. They would just be enjoying a second career (perhaps even a third) until they grew bored with Starfleet in turn, whiling away their long lives.

That (letting officers stay around as long as they want) has already been tried in the real world and has worked out terribly. It leads to slow promotion, dissatisfaction among motivated officers, too much satisfaction among bad officers, high turnover in the junior ranks, low morale, rivalries, pettiness, and generally poor performance in wartime until the dead wood is thinned out.

Pettiness, rivalries, and low morale aren't supposed to exist in the 24th Century enlightened human psyche, though!

Yes, it obviously works somehow and the TNG Starfleet is a big happy family. But believable it's not.

Believable or not, that's what's on screen. :shrug:
 
I can identify quite a bit with the Riker character and career track. While I have ties to NASA, Air Force, and Navy, the Trek world seems more like my education career. I am thirty eight years old and started out as a science teacher. I am currently an assistant-principal, but had a brief stint as the interim-principal of our school when the principal resigned. They offered me the job permanently, but I turned it down. I wanted to pace my career out and wanted to be the AP longer than one year. I have a friend who shot up fast through the ranks and became a superintendent by the age of thirty-five. He tells me many times that while he likes his job he wishes he had spaced it out. The only place for him to go now is a bigger district. At one time I had envisioned my career going in a similar fashion and saw myself as "the young hot shot on his way up." I can say that I like where I am and what I am doing and will move up when I'm ready. I kind of envision the Riker character the same way. His career goals changed after he reached the Enterprise. Now I am in no way comparing my career to serving on a real warship or a fictional starship, but there are alot of similarities in the overall command structure to those and my world.

We all know it had to be that way for the NG run or Frakes would have been out of a job. I think it worked out quite nicely for him in the movies and novels. While many of us want to be Capt Kirk in our careers coming out of college or the academy, very few turn out that way. Having the Kirk comparison early on helped Riker at the start of the series, but hurt the perception of the character for many in the long run.
 
I can identify quite a bit with the Riker character and career track. While I have ties to NASA, Air Force, and Navy, the Trek world seems more like my education career. I am thirty eight years old and started out as a science teacher. I am currently an assistant-principal, but had a brief stint as the interim-principal of our school when the principal resigned. They offered me the job permanently, but I turned it down. I wanted to pace my career out and wanted to be the AP longer than one year. I have a friend who shot up fast through the ranks and became a superintendent by the age of thirty-five. He tells me many times that while he likes his job he wishes he had spaced it out. The only place for him to go now is a bigger district. At one time I had envisioned my career going in a similar fashion and saw myself as "the young hot shot on his way up." I can say that I like where I am and what I am doing and will move up when I'm ready. I kind of envision the Riker character the same way. His career goals changed after he reached the Enterprise. Now I am in no way comparing my career to serving on a real warship or a fictional starship, but there are alot of similarities in the overall command structure to those and my world.

We all know it had to be that way for the NG run or Frakes would have been out of a job. I think it worked out quite nicely for him in the movies and novels. While many of us want to be Capt Kirk in our careers coming out of college or the academy, very few turn out that way. Having the Kirk comparison early on helped Riker at the start of the series, but hurt the perception of the character for many in the long run.
 
Theres an even bigger hole in this.
He was clearly holding out for the Enterprise D.
Then when i was destroyed the E
Then bam suddenly he takes the Titan, which is nothing compared to the Enterprise E, (tho at least better than an excelsior class like the Melbourne)
 
Then bam suddenly he takes the Titan, which is nothing compared to the Enterprise E, (tho at least better than an excelsior class like the Melbourne)


How do you know this? we never saw the Titan. Yes we've seen in the books but that's irrelevant in regards to what actually happened on screen.
 
Theres an even bigger hole in this.
He was clearly holding out for the Enterprise D.
Then when i was destroyed the E
Then bam suddenly he takes the Titan, which is nothing compared to the Enterprise E, (tho at least better than an excelsior class like the Melbourne)
Look at it this way. If Riker took the Melbourne, he'd be dead at Wolf 359.
 
Theres an even bigger hole in this.
He was clearly holding out for the Enterprise D.
Then when i was destroyed the E
Then bam suddenly he takes the Titan, which is nothing compared to the Enterprise E, (tho at least better than an excelsior class like the Melbourne)
Look at it this way. If Riker took the Melbourne, he'd be dead at Wolf 359.

Riker was lucky. The first command he was offered, the Drake, also wound up being destroyed, so he's dodged death inadvertently twice. We don't know if the Aries wound up being destroyed -- for all we know, it survived its long exploratory mission -- but I'd say Riker leads a charmed life. -- RR
 
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