Riker's actions in "Up the Long Ladder"

[KyleCHaight]

True, the majority of the episode is abysmal, but, there's an excellent scene about 3/4 of the way through where Commander Riker and Dr. Pulaski find "incubating" clones of themselves, obtained through illegal means. Riker, almost immediately, draws his phaser and vaporizes both of them.

What do you think of this action? True, Riker does get Pulaski's permission to destroy her duplicate and does so to his own without hesitation, but, wouldn't this be an example of murder on Riker's part? True, it was illegal for the aliens (who's name escapes me at the moment) to steal their DNA, but, in this case, do two wrongs make a right?

 

[Huntingdon]

There was a DS9 episode where odo states that 'killing your own clone is still murder'. This might be a Bajoran stance rather than UFP though.

It might be something that is regulated by how far the clone is developed, similar to current abortion laws.

 

[Timo]

...Which might take us right to UFP abortion laws. Perhaps it is legal to kill anything that is "presentient", be it a foetus, an undeveloped clone, or perhaps a lower life form like all those fish Riker slaughtered in his youth in Alaska?

OTOH, Starfleet officers might have a waiver for committing acts that are deemed murder if committed by civilians. After all, Riker kills people left and right when they pose a threat to the Federation way of existence. These clones could also be considered mortal enemies to the Federation, and a suitably accredited officer of the law or military officer (is there a difference in the Federation?) might be entitled to take decisive action against them.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Doug Otte]

Timo said:
...Which might take us right to UFP abortion laws. Perhaps it is legal to kill anything that is "presentient", be it a foetus, an undeveloped clone, or perhaps a lower life form like all those fish Riker slaughtered in his youth in Alaska?

OTOH, Starfleet officers might have a waiver for committing acts that are deemed murder if committed by civilians. After all, Riker kills people left and right when they pose a threat to the Federation way of existence. These clones could also be considered mortal enemies to the Federation, and a suitably accredited officer of the law or military officer (is there a difference in the Federation?) might be entitled to take decisive action against them.

Timo Saloniemi

Interesting point, Timo. By that logic, shouldn't he have killed his "double" from Second Chances?

Doug

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Huntingdon said:
There was a DS9 episode where odo states that 'killing your own clone is still murder'. This might be a Bajoran stance rather than UFP though.

It might be something that is regulated by how far the clone is developed, similar to current abortion laws.

Snodgrass went on record as saying this was her way of sneaking a pro-abortion stance into Trek. I believe it was in Starlog.

 

[Larris of Metropi]

Ryker and Dr. Pulaski did in fact kill their own clones in that TNG episode, but I would call it justified murder. Their dna WAS taken without their permission, by force even.

 

[Trekker4747]

larris said:
Ryker and Dr. Pulaski did in fact kill their own clones in that TNG episode, but I would call it justified murder. Their dna WAS taken without their permission, by force even.

So if a woman rapes me and gets pregnant I then have the right to force her to get an abortion?

 

[Gojirob]

Another one is in 'The Child' when Troi decides not to end her pregnancy. This one declaration is enough for everyone else, even Worf, to let it alone. Since her deciding to keep the baby ended all debate, the inverse implies that if she had decided to end the pregnancy, that too would have ended all debate.

Pre-tty sneaky, Sis!

 

[Trekker4747]

Indeed. That scene would seem to imply a pro-choice future.

 

[erastus25]

There's also a not-so-subtle scene in a season 1 episode were Picard rambles on about a human's "right to choose." It sounded awfully pro abortion. I really wish I could remember the episode.

 

[Vulcanian]

It was illegal in the Federation to do so. They were just doing what's necessary.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Trekker4747 said:

larris said:
Ryker and Dr. Pulaski did in fact kill their own clones in that TNG episode, but I would call it justified murder. Their dna WAS taken without their permission, by force even.

So if a woman rapes me and gets pregnant I then have the right to force her to get an abortion?

Doesn't really apply, since in this episode the clones were contained in machinery. There would be no one to force.

 

[Gojirob]

BTW, does anyone know how many times somebody asked the TNGers for something, were refused, and then just took it, usually under the desperate/dying excuse?

 

[Crewman6]

Timo said:
...Which might take us right to UFP abortion laws. Perhaps it is legal to kill anything that is "presentient", be it a foetus, an undeveloped clone, or perhaps a lower life form like all those fish Riker slaughtered in his youth in Alaska?

OTOH, Starfleet officers might have a waiver for committing acts that are deemed murder if committed by civilians. After all, Riker kills people left and right when they pose a threat to the Federation way of existence. These clones could also be considered mortal enemies to the Federation, and a suitably accredited officer of the law or military officer (is there a difference in the Federation?) might be entitled to take decisive action against them.

Timo Saloniemi

Whatever you think of Riker's actions, I don't think you could convince ANYONE - even Riker himself - that the clones were "mortal enemies" of anyone.

And in today's society, both civilians and military/government officials, police, whatever, can kill people in self-defense, but can't murder people.

 

[Green Shirt]

Trekker4747 said:

larris said:
Ryker and Dr. Pulaski did in fact kill their own clones in that TNG episode, but I would call it justified murder. Their dna WAS taken without their permission, by force even.

So if a woman rapes me and gets pregnant I then have the right to force her to get an abortion?

No, but you CAN kill HER.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

There's no debate. Violated or not, Riker is a murderer pure and simple. There was no risk to Riker or Pulaski in letting the clones mature, except their close-minded egos. Riker also acted without even consulting Picard, IIRC, his superior. That Picard let him off the hook makes Picard an accessory (Pulaski was already complicit).

Picard's outright hatred of the cloners' choice on reproduction makes him unfit to command a starship or even a garbage scow. He clearly isn't an open-minded explorer, he's a cultured thug.

The cloners would not have had a colony without cloning. Do they get praised for their accomplishments, all those years of seperated from the Federation. No, they get lectured by pompous bullies.

Besides, we all know the minute the Enterprise left, the cloners zapped those Irish hillfolk and cloned away.

(BTW, that cloning tech could've benefited Starfleet greatly during the dominion war...depending on how much education those mature clones require.)

 

[Timo]

Violated or not, Riker is a murderer pure and simple.

But that's the point: Riker is a murderer, a card-carrying one trained by the state and rewarded for his murderous actions. Prior to murdering his and Pulaski's clones, he had also murdered Dexter Remmick (or the foreign representative within him, take your pick) and the Borg, and would proceed to fire on numerous starships and villainly characters with murderous intent. Picard shot his "Time Squared" clone in cold blood, too. Such actions were not preceded by conference scenes or legal consultations - Riker and Picard obviously had the authority, and used it, as nobody complained afterwards.

And it can't be that they hid their actions from their higher-ups, either. "Time Squared" went right into the official logs. And even if we assume that Picard censored those logs, the "Conspiracy" thing at least was big - everybody in Starfleet must have learned about it at some point. And nobody complained.

We can't dictate what's right and wrong for Starfleet or the Federation. They have their own set of laws (even if it is woefully seldom referred to), and if they want to have a law that says that illegal clones can be shot on sight, it's their democratic right. All we can tell is that the law is not simplistic, because Bashir can state with vehemence that the clone-killing in "A Man Alone" was a bad thing when the one in "Up the Long Ladder" apparently was not. But that's murder for ya - it's never been condemned outright in the legislation of any human society in history, and probably never will.

Was the cloning tech in "Up the Long Ladder" something new, or rather something passé from the early 22nd century? I'd suspect the latter: Starfleet in the Dominion War would certainly have had the tech, but might not have wished to use it. Then again, perhaps it did, but only in those ground battles we never saw...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vulcanian]

It was illegal in the Federation to do so. They were just doing what's necessary in self defense.

 

[Timo]

Shouldn't they be punished, then?

I mean, if self defense is illegal, you go to jail for it (or pay fines, or die, or get a wedgie, depending on the law), whether it is necessary or not.

Yet Riker didn't receive any punishment from what he did, at least not as long as the cameras were rolling. So either it was legal for anybody in the Federation to do what Riker did, or it was legal for Riker specifically to do this, or the entire crew of the Enterprise are a bunch of criminals...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vulcanian]

Vulcanian said:
It was illegal in the Federation to do so. They were just doing what's necessary in self defense.

Sorry, tech problems *blush*