Well, exiled and stripped of her name, which for most Rihannsu would probably have led them to fall on their sword. But then, Charvanek is hardly "most Rihannsu".
Rihannsu...yes or no?
- Thread starter Paris
- Start date
Don't tell me what I can and cannot have. I've had both tea and no tea for a ridiculously long time now. I'm quite mad.
That reference just earned you a hug.
*hug*
Or perhaps the books are "racially blind" , and thus don't make a big issue of the fact that the Ch'Havrans look rather horridly different from the Ch'Rihans, due to the developments described in Vulcan's Nouns.
And the description of Remus as somewhat more arid than Romulus (but still fertile and good for the crops) might be another polite understatement: the place is a dead hellhole, and the crops grow underground, with slave laborers toiling over the growing vats just like they toil in the mines.
Timo Saloniemi
^ Cute, but Diane describes the Romulans from ch'Havran, and they look just like the Romulans everywhere else, and the descriptions of ch'Rihan's sister planet resemble the Remus of Nemesis in no way, shape, or form. It's not like these were reminisces by characters prone to exaggeration, there were scenes on ch'Havran in Diane's books.
That was only half in jest: a description of somebody as, say, "handsome, with a square jaw and steely eyes" doesn't yet mean that this somebody wouldn't have three of the eyes, or a pair of antennae that go unmentioned.
In the end, Duane's descriptions of Klingons don't differ from those of her Rihannsu or Havrannsu: she doesn't explicate that the Klingons have forehead ridges and/or Fu Manchu moustaches, since that goes without saying, so she might not make specific mention of the more Nosferatuesque aspects of her Havrannsu characters, either. It's not as if she ever mentions the pointed ears of her Vulcanoid heroes and villains...
But yes, the descriptions of ch'Havran do jar a bit with the visuals from ST:NEM! Unless we assume that there was terraforming after the S&S "E books" but before Duane TOS era books, and then a terraforming failure or a devastating war after that era but before NEM, so that the fertile fields were a short-lived phenomenon...
Timo Saloniemi
In the end, Duane's descriptions of Klingons don't differ from those of her Rihannsu or Havrannsu: she doesn't explicate that the Klingons have forehead ridges and/or Fu Manchu moustaches, since that goes without saying, so she might not make specific mention of the more Nosferatuesque aspects of her Havrannsu characters, either. It's not as if she ever mentions the pointed ears of her Vulcanoid heroes and villains...
But yes, the descriptions of ch'Havran do jar a bit with the visuals from ST:NEM! Unless we assume that there was terraforming after the S&S "E books" but before Duane TOS era books, and then a terraforming failure or a devastating war after that era but before NEM, so that the fertile fields were a short-lived phenomenon...
Timo Saloniemi
I have such fond memories of "The Wounded Sky". I had been told by ST friends that I'd never find ST books in Hawaii, but I found it in the first big shop I went into, on my first overseas trip. The book accompanied me on flights all over the US mainland. It somehow seemed appropriate that the Enterprise was testing an amazing new drive system when I kept flying to new, strange locales.
When "My Enemy, My Ally" turned up, I devoured it, and was specially thrilled by the addition of perky, young Mr Naraht the horta. I guess the Rihannsu aspects were less important than seeing all "The Wounded Sky" guest cast again. And then "The Romulan Way" was such a great McCoy novel.
After the long wait for the next two instalments (who even knew they were coming?), I did find them lacking, and "The Empty Chair", after another long wait, I found overly long and rather tedious with all the ship battles, but I did like the way it incorporated new material about Romulans from canon.
I started out with The Romulan Way and the regressed to ME,MA and The Wounded Sky (via Doctor's Orders). The "less compact" nature of Sky thus had the same impact on me as the newer books had on you, it seems...
It's not as if Duane would ever have paid much attention to form and structure, really. It's always a broader brush that she uses, with lots of description, side tracks, obligato melodies and Swiss references to hide the fact that there actually also is a perfectly decent plot in there, too.
Timo Saloniemi
It's not as if Duane would ever have paid much attention to form and structure, really. It's always a broader brush that she uses, with lots of description, side tracks, obligato melodies and Swiss references to hide the fact that there actually also is a perfectly decent plot in there, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Strictly speaking, I can't recall anything that specifically says, "there was no native life on Remus that ended up being enslaved by the new arrivals and called Remans" in the Duane books - but it would seem like a pretty huge thing to leave out, and it seems like we saw enough that it would have been mentioned or at least alluded to.....
Another direct contradiction that no one has mentioned is the day/night cycle on Remus. Duane showed a relatively normal day and night on Remus in The Romulan Way, as opposed to ... whatever that was
... in Nemesis.
Another direct contradiction that no one has mentioned is the day/night cycle on Remus. Duane showed a relatively normal day and night on Remus in The Romulan Way, as opposed to ... whatever that was
... in Nemesis.
I liked Duane's Spock's World and Dark Mirror, and after reading all of your thoughts, i'm sure i'll dig Rihannsu as well.
I love Diane Duane's books. I won't hear a word against them! ;-)
I was reading about the Vulcan's Soul books in Voyages of Imagination, and they say Chekov and Uhura are alive post Nemesis? Sorry, but I've seen Of Gods and Men, and with all due respect, they don't have another 100 years in them (I feel all macabre saying that). Is there some sort of time warp involved? Is it a flashabck?
I was reading about the Vulcan's Soul books in Voyages of Imagination, and they say Chekov and Uhura are alive post Nemesis? Sorry, but I've seen Of Gods and Men, and with all due respect, they don't have another 100 years in them (I feel all macabre saying that). Is there some sort of time warp involved? Is it a flashabck?
They are alive pre-Nemesis at least, as IIRC, the trilogy happens in 2377. At this point Chekov would be 132 and Uhura would be 138
and both are still active as Starfleet Admirals if you can believe it. People who served with Kirk seem to live for a hell of a long time
^^People live longer in the future. In one DS9 episode, Dax said she expected O'Brien to live to 140. Which could be taken as an indicator of average life expectancy, though from context it sounded more like an extreme upper estimate to me. Either way, though, it makes it plausible that future medical science could allow people to live into their 130s as a matter of course.
If anything, ST is being conservative about human longevity in the future. Given some of the current developments in genetic research, there are many who believe that the human lifespan could be extended enormously or even indefinitely within the next century or so. (Hopefully within my lifetime...)
If anything, ST is being conservative about human longevity in the future. Given some of the current developments in genetic research, there are many who believe that the human lifespan could be extended enormously or even indefinitely within the next century or so. (Hopefully within my lifetime...)
If this is the case, why were Kirk and crew expected to retire in 2293 when the they weren't even at middle age? We've seen some really old people like McCoy and Jameson, but I never thought that it was the norm to live that long. They seemed like abberations...
I don't know, it doesn't ring true to me. Nemesis and Vulcan's Soul depict "Remus" as a mineral rich world (of fire & ice) that's tidally locked with the system's star in a totally different orbit. It's the home of the mutated slaves known as "Remans."
The Rihannsu books describe Ch'Havran as a moon that's tidally locked with "Romulus" that's agriculturally rich and home to a segment of the Romulan population that's more or less (mostly less) equal in social standing to the rest of the Romulan citizenry.
To put it a different way, if it doesn't look like a duck, swim like a duck or quack like a duck, then it probably isn't a duck. Assumptions to the contrary aside, I don't think it's safe to say that "Remus" and Ch'Havran are actually the same place.
Regarding the Commander from "The Enterprise Incident". I'm sorry to disagree Christopher, but I don't think you read the books very well.
Ael's niece, or Charvanek in the S&S books, was stripped of her name and exiled, no where in any of the books does it say she died. rfmcdpei is quite correct in that once Ael rose to power as the Empress she expressed the desire to locate her niece and presumably restore her name and place in Rihannsu society. Given the S&S books, it seems evident that she did.
I agree the books aren't 100% compatible, but in at least these two regards I don't see any conflict.
Last edited:
Plecostomus
Commodore
Ok... prehaps some horrific accident/attack turned "Remus" into the barren hellhole populated with "Remans."
Because Star Trek is a fictional universe created by many different people, some of whom have had a better grasp of futurism than others.
In-universe, we could suppose that the retirement was merely from active duty -- people could live a long time, but couldn't be expected to maintain peak physical condition, sensory acuity, and so forth beyond age 70 or so. So you couldn't serve on the line beyond about that age, but could still serve at a desk job for decades thereafter. After all, the aged McCoy and Uhura are not described as being at all physically robust, although I think Admiral Chekov's portrayal may be inconsistent with that. And then there's Elias Vaughn. But perhaps there was a major breakthrough in geriatric science in the early 2300s.
Yeah, in both cases you can invent rationalizations after the fact. The point is that the assumptions made by different authors over the decades have differed. Duane intended ch'Havran to be Remus; NEM invented a different and inconsistent interpretation of Remus. You can pretend they're two different worlds, but that's a fan handwave, not the original intent.
As for the Commander, she appeared or was referenced in many early novels with many contradictory fates -- either she'd weathered the cloaking-device incident with no real consequence (the Phoenix novels), or she'd been executed (Yesterday's Son, I believe), or she'd been stripped of her name and as good as dead by her culture's standards (Rihannsu), or she'd been demoted and worked her way back up through the ranks over decades (Dwellers in the Crucible), or she'd somehow managed to become the secret praetor of the whole Romulan Empire (Killing Time). My point is simply that Diane Duane did not intend or expect the Commander to have the future she was later established as having by Sherman & Shwartz, and that what she wrote about the Commander's fate was not meant to be consistent with something that hadn't been written yet when she wrote it. Any more than she thought of the Commander as "Charvanek," because the character was not given that name until 1999. (She was "Commander Charvon" in the Phoenix novels, a name which Sherman & Shwartz adapted to modern Romulan naming conventions. She was "Thea" in Killing Time. She was otherwise just the Commander.)
You're very good at changing the subject, but that doesn't alter the fact that you're incorrect regarding Ael's niece. Duane never said she died and in fact she made the effort in her book to bring the character in line the S&S's depiction. I'm sorry but your argument to the contrary is silly. We're not talking about other books besides Duane's and S&S and I'm not making any commentary on theorized intentions.
Likewise, I'm making no inventions or rationalizations regarding Ch'Havran and "Remus" I'm simply stating what's depicted in the text. I find it strange that you aren't able to see that.
Once again, if it doesn't look like a duck, swim like a duck or quack like a duck, then it probably isn't a duck. Assumptions to the contrary aside, I don't think it's safe to say that "Remus" and Ch'Havran are actually the same place.
As a proclaimed man of science your argument regarding this this also strikes me as quite silly a stance to take.
I'm sorry to disagree once again, but you simply haven't read The Empty Chair very well. rfmcdpei's observation is the correct one.
Likewise, I'm making no inventions or rationalizations regarding Ch'Havran and "Remus" I'm simply stating what's depicted in the text. I find it strange that you aren't able to see that.
Once again, if it doesn't look like a duck, swim like a duck or quack like a duck, then it probably isn't a duck. Assumptions to the contrary aside, I don't think it's safe to say that "Remus" and Ch'Havran are actually the same place.
As a proclaimed man of science your argument regarding this this also strikes me as quite silly a stance to take.
I'm sorry to disagree once again, but you simply haven't read The Empty Chair very well. rfmcdpei's observation is the correct one.
Last edited:
What the hell? Okay, maybe I misremembered a detail from the Rihannsu books, but this is a bizarrely hostile reaction. You asked what was inconsistent about these issues between the Duane books and the Sherman/Shwartz books. I answered that question, and now you're angry at me for answering the question you asked.
And it's bizarre for you to talk about ch'Havran as if it wasn't intended to be Remus. It was explicitly identified with Remus in Duane's books -- see p. 6 of My Enemy, My Ally or p. 10 of The Bloodwing Voyages. So no, you're not stating what's depicted in the text. You're offering a fan retcon for the difference between Diane Duane's interpretation of Remus and John Logan and Stuart Baird's interpretation of Remus. It's not a bad or invalid retcon, and there's no need to get defensive over it -- but it is a simple fact that NEM's version of Remus contradicted Duane's version of the same world. You asked what the inconsistency was, I told you, and for some strange reason you find it necessary to insult me for that. You're taking this whole business way too seriously.
???
I'm not sure where you're reading hostility from, what insults or defensiveness are you talking about? I think you may be quite confused about what I'm saying. I think our misunderstanding stems from the fact that the point you're trying to make isn't the point I'm trying to make.
When you entered the discussion you were trying to make a point that different authors have had different interpretations of things over the years. Which would seem like common sense to me and I'd think it goes without saying; but your point in that regard is true and if some of the posters in the thread weren't aware of that idea then yes, it's a good point to make.
But the topic I was discussing with KRAD, and in fact the original topic of the thread was whether or not the narratives of Duane's Rihannsu books were compatible with the narrative of the Vulcan's Soul books. And regarding these two points and specifically that of the Romulan Commander's fate, I don't believe they are incompatible. I would say that my position is supported by the text, which is why I was confused about the position you were trying to take in this regard.
I'm not sure where you're reading hostility from, what insults or defensiveness are you talking about? I think you may be quite confused about what I'm saying. I think our misunderstanding stems from the fact that the point you're trying to make isn't the point I'm trying to make.
When you entered the discussion you were trying to make a point that different authors have had different interpretations of things over the years. Which would seem like common sense to me and I'd think it goes without saying; but your point in that regard is true and if some of the posters in the thread weren't aware of that idea then yes, it's a good point to make.
But the topic I was discussing with KRAD, and in fact the original topic of the thread was whether or not the narratives of Duane's Rihannsu books were compatible with the narrative of the Vulcan's Soul books. And regarding these two points and specifically that of the Romulan Commander's fate, I don't believe they are incompatible. I would say that my position is supported by the text, which is why I was confused about the position you were trying to take in this regard.
That said, Trek also had a devastating nuclear war which, if the Colonel Green sequences in the Terra Prime duology can be trusted, had notable, immediate genetic aftereffects. It's possible that human longevity isn't as far as it otherwise should have been because of the lingering impact of mild but broadbased (global, even) and prolonged exposure to radiactive contaminents in the air, water, etc., which took several generations to fully expunge.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Similar threads
