Rewatching Voyager

[tomalak301]

Having lost family in the holocaust, and having relatives who were serving with the Allies during the Liberation, it's very important to me personally and our culture to "Never Forget". Never forget the atrocities, never forget the horrors of war. Never forget the recurring antisemitism in the world; and most importantly with today's Israel and its army - never let it happen again.

But is there a difference between never forgetting and being forced to live through it so that you never forget? I agree with you, you never forget the atrocities, but you can remember it by not going to the extreme of being forced to live through it. For example, I remember years ago I took a tour of Gettysberg (something that was brought up in the episode) and it was a very emotional experience. I didn't live through it for it to have an impact, but I was able to remember it in my own way. I just wonder if this episode took the memorial to the extreme, which is why I do question Janeway's decision.

Also, I do think maybe the Jewish example was a bit out of line and I apologize if I offended anyone.

 

[Jedman67]

I'm not offended. And that's why Janeway put up the warning beacon; so people would know what they were getting into.
As an aside, I've never been able to watch holocaust movies - i just can't get into the right mindset.

 

[stardream]

My son is a veteran of Operation Enduring Freedom. He is currently on disability. The idea that anyone would inflict Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome on anyone is repugnant. To do it against their will is...I don't even have a word for it.

While I have great respect for Robert Picardo, it bothered me (yes, rule of plot) that there was only one EMH. With the medical knowledge contained in the ships computers, how hard would it be to create a new holographic physician if the Doc tries to leave? Or better yet, just duplicate him! He's just software!!

It's always been in my head canon that they used the bare essentials of Equinox Doctor as a sort of template for the Training Doctor we saw in Critical Care...and he might have even been the Doctor we saw in Living Witness.

 

[Sophie74656]

I never thought about Memorial this way before. But now that you guys are saing it that does make sense. My grandparents spent time hiding in attics, starving, watching family members die durring the war and while we do need to remember these things we should not be forced to personally relive them.

I'm also going to give the benefit of the doubt here and assume the reason it was extra traumatic for them was because the memorial was damaged, or degrading, and they didn't get the memories the way they were originally intended to be seen. I'm assuming the people who constructed the memorial didn't intend to traumatize anyone who came along, just to share the knowledge and experience so people would know what happened.

 

[stardream]

I never thought about Memorial this way before. But now that you guys are saing it that does make sense. My grandparents spent time hiding in attics, starving, watching family members die durring the war and while we do need to remember these things we should not be forced to personally relive them.

I'm also going to give the benefit of the doubt here and assume the reason it was extra traumatic for them was because the memorial was damaged, or degrading, and they didn't get the memories the way they were originally intended to be seen. I'm assuming the people who constructed the memorial didn't intend to traumatize anyone who came along, just to share the knowledge and experience so people would know what happened.

I wouldn't have had a problem with the crewmembers living the actual experience, once, but then having the terror and guilt fade into 'history' book like memories, if that makes sense.

 

[locutus101]

@stardream + @locutus101
Here's Tommyboy for you from BLISS:
"Believe it or not, I am capable of handling almost any medical problem you might have."

Remember that it was BLISS. They were all a little crazy in that episode. Neelix even thought that he had the qualifications the be a real ambassador.

 

[Jedman67]

I imagined it would be similar to a holodeck recreation; except its implanted as memories of the experience. The damaged memorial only provided snippets of memory to the crew without the context for them to realize it was "only" a simulation.

 

[locutus101]

I imagined it would be similar to a holodeck recreation; except its implanted as memories of the experience. The damaged memorial only provided snippets of memory to the crew without the context for them to realize it was "only" a simulation.

The pitcher plant was making them incapable of hearing anything that was contrary to their moving toward it, to be digested evidently.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Remember that it was BLISS. They were all a little crazy in that episode. Neelix even thought that he had the qualifications the be a real ambassador.

It might have been in BLISS but my point is that on Voyager (also on DS9 - I don't know the other Trek shows) it always looks like someone with a cleaner's qualifications could cure anyone of basically anything. In 21st century real life it takes months of blood tests and other medicals for the doctor just to set up a diagnosis. In the world of Star Trek, it seems you turn on the medical tricorder and in two seconds you are capable of a flawless diagnosis. Once you have that, it appears the tricorder tells you in exactly two seconds (maybe just one), what kind of drug a patient needs to be administered.
So anyone seems to me to be capable of healing in the 24th century. Tom is overqualified.

 

[locutus101]

It might have been in BLISS but my point is that on Voyager (also on DS9 - I don't know the other Trek shows) it always looks like someone with a cleaner's qualifications could cure anyone of basically anything. In 21st century real life it takes months of blood tests and other medicals for the doctor just to set up a diagnosis. In the world of Star Trek, it seems you turn on the medical tricorder and in two seconds you are capable of a flawless diagnosis. Once you have that, it appears the tricorder tells you in exactly two seconds (maybe just one), what kind of drug a patient needs to be administered.
So anyone seems to me to be capable of healing in the 24th century. Tom is overqualified.

Some say that the doc was just a glorified walking tricorder.

 

[Sophie74656]

Some say that the doc was just a glorified walking tricorder.

if you don't believe that he had any sentience then yes he was

 

[locutus101]

if you don't believe that he had any sentience then yes he was

Well, it's hard to tell. If an actual program was so well done that it would give answers tthat seemed sentient, would you believe that the program actually was sentient or just that it was an illusion? Most people would think the latter. We only agree that the doc is sentient because the series tells us to, not because of some cogent reasoning, the same way people believe in Vampires, undead, and whatnot when they are watching a movie but would never believe in them in real life.

 

[Sophie74656]

Well, it's hard to tell. If an actual program was so well done that it would give answers tthat seemed sentient, would you believe that the program actually was sentient or just that it was an illusion? Most people would think the latter. We only agree that the doc is sentient because the series tells us to, not because of some cogent reasoning.

yep, and this was addressed many times in Trek

 

[locutus101]

yep, and this was addressed many times in Trek

I am not sure I understand your answer. What do you say yes to?

 

[tomalak301]

Collective

Hello Borg children, especially the poor baby that disappears at the end of the episode. This episode was just ok. Seven is great as always, but the borg leader was as annoying as many other children in Star Trek (See, DS9's Valiant) and really forgettable. Basically this episode was to make Seven of Nine a guardian figure. It feels like she's doing most other things on the ship so I guess one more thing wouldn't hurt.

 

[Catarina]

Collective

Ugh!!!!!! Enough with the Borg eps. I liked Icheb so glad he stuck around and I guess this made the later episode where his parents come back and reveal they used him (yet another borg ep) worth it. And Harry was definitely #Redshirt of the episode. yikes.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

 

[stardream]

Collective was ok but I really dislike it when an episode starts out with a group of characters and then they disappear. We start with Chakotay, Tom, and Neelix and after a certain point, we don't see them again. I don't mind that it's essentially a Seven episode... but maybe perhaps they should have had her included with the team and not become the focus midway through. The structure just seems a bit lopsided to me from a writing standpoint.

 

[locutus101]

Collective was ok but I really dislike it when an episode starts out with a group of characters and then they disappear. We start with Chakotay, Tom, and Neelix and after a certain point, we don't see them again. I don't mind that it's essentially a Seven episode... but maybe perhaps they should have had her included with the team and not become the focus midway through. The structure just seems a bit lopsided to me from a writing standpoint.

And Harry kim plays the victim card, literally.

 

[Jedman67]

Just rewatched Latent Image. Wow. Picardo really sold that episode, despite all the usual plot holes and flaws etc.
The episode centers around the Doctor discovering that Janeway had removed some of his memories from 18 months previously, where he had to triage an ensign expendable and harry kim and only had time to save one.
Great acting all around BUUUT - why is there no other trained medical assistants? on a crew of ~200, there should be at least a couple of other trained medics/emt's/medical assistants, and a backup holographic surgeon to boot. The premise was too forced, in other words. Otherwise it was a pretty good episode.