Revist of UNfavorite Episodes

[Henoch]

I can't see that genocide is justified ever.
Especially when the ships were warned (not that that justifies anyone's actions)
I mean I think its OK for the Enterprise crew not to commit suicide but actually blasting the surface of a planet is the sort of thing we think of Klingons doing in that era not the Federation

This is using 20th-21st century thinking for a 23rd century situation. When Eminiar Seven attacked and destroyed the USS Valiant, they committed an act of war against the Federation. It took 50 years and the loss of many other lives to finally determine this fact. So, it is a matter of how does the Federation react to this affront? Do nothing, or simply declare it a "no-go" zone? The Klingons and Romulans are watching, so, do you show weakness or do you make an example of strength (over a technological inferior race so the downside risk is low) to show the other empires around the Federation (and probably to those within the Federation like the Andorians, etc.) that they have the means and the will to use force to protect the Federation. The starting set-up with Fox willing to start a war if intimidation fails is evidence that the Federation is putting on a show of force, up to and including, destroying an entire civilization on a planet. Harsh, but this is 23rd century politics.

 

[Commishsleer]

Well committing genocide isn't really protecting the Federation.
Its just showing how tough you are by picking on the little kids to the other thugs so they won't pick on you.
I mean isn't that what they do in the Mirror Universe. Wipe out planet populations so the Terror must be maintained
And surely the area around your solar system is yours. Why should they let Starfleet close enough to you know wipe out the population of their planet.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Eh. The numbered General Order to "destroy the place in question" was clearly intended for non-civilian targets. As used in "Armageddon," Scotty absolutely understood it to be a bluff. That's why he radioed down and informed Anan what was going to happen at the end of the two hours. And Scotty specifically said "You have that long to surrender your hostages."

In other words, I'm not going to blow up your cities if you let my landing party go. We have a deal, I assume?

If it wasn't a bluff and a negotiating tactic, Scotty would just carry the order out with no warning. But this was an extreme and literal version of gunboat diplomacy.

 

[johnnybear]

The Enterprise was warned to keep away from the area, something Kirk was keen to obey but Ambassador Robert Fox, like all politicians, thought he knew better! And if not for Kirk's keen strategy the situation could have gotten worse and Eminiar 7 could have been destroyed in a conflict with the United Federation of Planets, but in a way of preserving the peace of space of course!
JB

 

[Henoch]

Eh. The numbered General Order to "destroy the place in question" was clearly intended for non-civilian targets. As used in "Armageddon," Scotty absolutely understood it to be a bluff. That's why he radioed down and informed Anan what was going to happen at the end of the two hours. And Scotty specifically said "You have that long to surrender your hostages."

In other words, I'm not going to blow up your cities if you let my landing party go. We have a deal, I assume?

If it wasn't a bluff and a negotiating tactic, Scotty would just carry the order out with no warning. But this was an extreme and literal version of gunboat diplomacy.

A convincing counter-argument...I guess we will never know whether Scotty would have carried out the order.

 

[Commishsleer]

Perhaps the Order had a big range of options so that in "Piece of the Action" where there was no spaceflight they could stun the city, in "Bread and Circuses" where they rated higher on the industrial scale the Enterprise was allowed to cut off their power right up to the situations on Deneva, ENT and NEMESIS where they had planet destroying weapons. Perhaps in these cases the Enterprise had the option of legally wiping out the population if the planet endangered Earth or other Federation planets.
e the Earth was in no danger perhaps Scotty was allowed to do more since the planet was Warp capable (I presume) and issue a bluff (I presume) and put some actions behind it.
Perhaps Scotty was just reminding them that Geral Order 30 allowed him to do that (sort of) and the worst he was really going to do was wipe out the planet's weaponry and defensive systems (ignoring his conversation with McCoy).

 

[johnnybear]

Scotty looked like he was prepared to use that force too unless Anan-7 released Kirk and his landing party!
JB

 

[Methuselah Flint]

The one he tosses on the bridge somehow them skootches along and stands up(!) in order to spray him.

I'm sorry but I'm laughing at this! I have a dirty mind!

 

[Commishsleer]

I rate the "Lights of Zetar" low and I'm not sure why.
Can't think of anything specific. I didn't mind the lead actress.
Say I'd prefer to watch "Spock's Brain" anyday.
Maybe its because the central character was not Kirk, Spock or McCoy and I wasn't used to it.
Also another episode where Scotty was acting like a bit OOC.
Still I want to like it...

 

[grenbegnilkmij]

I rewatched it and liked it even better, but then again, I lime all of them, though as mant times as our tv stations replayed "Obsession" back in the 80's, I haven't replayed it from my collection now for several years lol

 

[grenbegnilkmij]

And the Children Shall Lead is one of mt least favorite as well. Almost the lamest alien ever in Star Trek.

 

[Spock's Barber]

And the Children Shall Lead is one of mt least favorite as well. Almost the lamest alien ever in Star Trek.

...and that costume that they draped Melvin Belli in didn’t help any either.

 

[Farscape One]

Yeah, glow in the dark cow cows aren't exactly threatening.

(Cow cow: what I call a 'muumuu'. I made that joke with my wife one day years ago, and the name just stuck. Especially if it has milk and cookies print on it...)

 

[Commishsleer]

And the Children Shall Lead is one of mt least favorite as well. Almost the lamest alien ever in Star Trek.

Id like to see the episode with Belli replace by some animated character/actor. Just replace him with either a hideous ghost or pretty princess . And cut out some of the children footage. You know when they said they might have to kill the children, I wasn't that appalled although I should have been. Hated the children as well as Belli.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Eh. The numbered General Order to "destroy the place in question" was clearly intended for non-civilian targets. As used in "Armageddon," Scotty absolutely understood it to be a bluff. That's why he radioed down and informed Anan what was going to happen at the end of the two hours. And Scotty specifically said "You have that long to surrender your hostages."

In other words, I'm not going to blow up your cities if you let my landing party go. We have a deal, I assume?

If it wasn't a bluff and a negotiating tactic, Scotty would just carry the order out with no warning. But this was an extreme and literal version of gunboat diplomacy.

It is totally within Kirk's character to have a bluff of this magnatude on hand, with Scotty in the know, in the event he and his landing party are taken hostage this dangerous situation. And Scotty had bass balls, so yup, he'd totally sell it. Even if Anan caught on, once the Enterprise blew up a key facility from high orbit, he would have buckled.

But boy, I sure do wish someone had written a line where someone at least asks Kirk if it's a bluff. Or have Fox at the end say, "Captain...there is no General Order 24." Kirk would then flash a smile.

 

[Qonundrum]

A convincing counter-argument...I guess we will never know whether Scotty would have carried out the order.

Let's say Anan decided to call the bluff, then what? Major installations go boom-boom-splodey and then the smaller, non-military cities then do what? Have everybody there count to three then look up and stick out their tongues in derisive unison? Then what? Drop trou and moon 'em?

Knowing Enterprise was up there, had teleportation capability, weaponry, and shields that weren't weakening, there was just no way the Eminiarans could respond. Which is bleak. Anan wouldn't assume anything. about extent or intent.

 

[Qonundrum]

It is totally within Kirk's character to have a bluff of this magnatude on hand, with Scotty in the know, in the event he and his landing party are taken hostage this dangerous situation. And Scotty had bass balls, so yup, he'd totally sell it. Even if Anan caught on, once the Enterprise blew up a key facility from high orbit, he would have buckled.

But boy, I sure do wish someone had written a line where someone at least asks Kirk if it's a bluff. Or have Fox at the end say, "Captain...there is no General Order 24." Kirk would then flash a smile.

^^this

It'd be a little corny, but the old "Cap'n told a pokerfib about that rule to destroy everything" trick would have fit rather nicely.

The story almost deserves a sequel, but chances would be that representatives of Ventikar came on over after Kirk left and, oops, now the situation is worse. :|

 

[Ssosmcin]

Let's say Anan decided to call the bluff, then what? Major installations go boom-boom-splodey and then the smaller, non-military cities then do what? Have everybody there count to three then look up and stick out their tongues in derisive unison? Then what? Drop trou and moon 'em?

Knowing Enterprise was up there, had teleportation capability, weaponry, and shields that weren't weakening, there was just no way the Eminiarans could respond. Which is bleak. Anan wouldn't assume anything. about extent or intent.

Anan was all about "the culture." If Scotty targeted a few of the more historic areas or just blew the hell out of their power stations so they couldn't use their technology, Vendikar would be all sorts of "well, I guess we need to fire some rockets."

Assuming, of course, after centures, they even had any lying around.

 

[MAGolding]

After Kirk blows up the computers at the end:

FOX: As a third party interested only in peace and the establishment of normal relations, I should be glad to offer my services as negotiator between you and Vendikar. I've had some small experiences in such matters.
ANAN: There may be a chance. We have a direct channel with Vendikar's High Council. It hasn't been used in centuries.
FOX: Then it's long overdue. Shall we go?
(Anan and Fox leave.)
SPOCK: There's a chance it may work, Captain.
KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise. Scotty?
SCOTT [OC]: Scott here, Captain.
KIRK: Cancel implementation of General Order Twenty Four. Alert transporter room. We're ready to beam up.

So after Fox and Anan 7 left the Leader of Eminiar VII was no longer around to be impressed by anything Kirk said. Does anyone rmember if there were any Eminians around who could hear what Kirk said and later tell Anan 7? If not, I would guess that General Order 24 was real and not a bluff.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Does anyone remember if there were any Eminians around who could hear what Kirk said and later tell Anan 7? If not, I would guess that General Order 24 was real and not a bluff.

You raise a good point: it's possible the writer didn't know this was a bluff, not having thought it through. But in-universe, it was a bluff. The Enterprise doesn't inflict global genocide on a planet over some minor hostilities.

Thus "Cancel implementation of General Order Twenty Four" means "It worked, they bought it. Good job." And I reiterate, if it were not a bluff, Scotty would not have understood it to be a negotiating tactic to get the landing party released. He wouldn't have warned Anan of what was supposedly coming, and demanded the hostages be freed to stop it. He would just wait two hours and attack. And then the Starfleet would pack him off to prison.

Mirror Universe Kirk and Scott, different story.