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Revisiting Star Trek Continues...

Back to the starships being all wrecked, that's a misinterpretation of this from the ST—TMP novelization:
* Editor's note: We doubt that "limited intellectual agility" will stand up in the face of the fact that Kirk commanded the U.S.S. Enterprise on its historic five-year voyage and became the first starship captain in history to bring back both his vessel and his crew relatively intact after such a mission.

Other starships came back, just not from such a long-duration and dangerous mission. And there's nothing in the show to indicate, say, the Lexington was doing five years out there.
 
Uh, why the hell should live-action Star Trek defer to Trek books at all? My personal opinion is, if it didn't happen on screen, it didn't happen...
The same goes to deleted scenes...if they're not in the final product, it didn't happen...
The recent Otoy video leaned heavily into book and comic lore. Sometimes it can be really cool.
 
Back to the starships being all wrecked, that's a misinterpretation of this from the ST—TMP novelization:


Other starships came back, just not from such a long-duration and dangerous mission. And there's nothing in the show to indicate, say, the Lexington was doing five years out there.
what annoys me is that there was barely any thought given to all the dead crews from all the attacked ships in STC
 
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I guess because I've been re-watching some STC episodes my Youtube has been feeding me some related content? I've watched about half of it by now and it's more about the social impact of the show than the actual episodes themselves, but hopefully in the second half they'll delve more into that.
 
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I guess because I've been re-watching some STC episodes my Youtube has been feeding me some related content? I've watched about half of it by now and it's more about the social impact of the show than the actual episodes themselves, but hopefully in the second half they'll delve more into that.
Social impact of what show? STC?
 
STC, did a continuation of the Mirror Mirror episode and I thought it was very good. They were limited by their budget but I think STC is absolutely excellent. Plus they had some hollywood guest stars.

Personally I would like to see another Mirror Mirror episode when the bad Kirk gets on the good Enterprise. Okay Spock let's vaporize the city. And let's see what Spork would have done!

John P
 
Social impact of what show? STC?
i might be using the wrong expression...they talked about how doing this show changed their lives, but also when they had their first exhibition at a con, they had a much greater number of fans coming than they expected, so THAT kind of impact
 
i might be using the wrong expression...they talked about how doing this show changed their lives, but also when they had their first exhibition at a con, they had a much greater number of fans coming than they expected, so THAT kind of impact
Oh, okay, that's clearer.
 
Back to the starships being all wrecked, that's a misinterpretation of this from the ST—TMP novelization:


Other starships came back, just not from such a long-duration and dangerous mission. And there's nothing in the show to indicate, say, the Lexington was doing five years out there.
Interesting...in the show opening it's mentioned right there that the Enterprise had a 5-year mission, but the way it is written in your quote that none/some of the others did NOT have such a lengthy term?

I do feel this was a mistake by STC to interpret that all the big cruisers were lost at the end...But don't I remember reading on Exeter's website (on the Wayback machine) that they had also planned for their last episode to have a big battle somewhere where most on the Constitution ships would get wrecked as well?

Something that struck me? I don't think it's ever been mentioned or discussed before, with 300 men and women living together for 5 years, how would they account for the possibility that one of them would become pregnant? I would tend to think Starfleet would be annoyed if that would happen and they would need to replace that officer. Same for the horny little men who see the nubile alien women and they end up being more than fraternal with them. Has Starfleet invented some vaccine that keeps women from getting pregnant for 5 years, and that negates the men's little swimmers for a time?
 
In the OG there's nothing to indicate any of the ships were on a five-year mission except for that title narration, which refers only to the Enterprise. In contemporary navies different ships of the same class have different kinds of deployments.

Had the original ending scene to "Adonais" made the final cut, we'd know birth control wasn't mandatory.
 
They never referenced it in TOS, but it is mentioned in The Making Of Star Trek that birth control is in effect on Starfleet starships.
 
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Interesting...but frankly when I hear about the large amount of vaccines that newly-enlisted soldiers have to go through, I don't have trouble believing that in a sci-fi setting like Star Trek they would add something to prevent births, especially children born from personnel and the natives of various planets when we remember all of the abandoned children of Vietnam servicemen.
 
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Interesting...but frankly when I hear about the large amount of vaccines that newly-enlisted soldiers have to go through, I don't have trouble believing that in a sci-fi setting like Star Trek they would add something to prevent births, especially children born from personnel and the natives of various planets, especially when we remember all of the abandoned children of servicemen in Vietnam.
If I recall correctly the reference to birth control in TMoST is in the form of a monthly injection.
 
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Thanks for the info, Warped9. I'm a little in advance, and the discussion for the episode Embracing the Winds is still a few days away, considering Warped's usual schedule, but there is one aspect of this episode that has been on my mind for some time.

Basically EtW was about confronting head on the apparent sexism still inherent in Starfleet, with its lack of women as Constitution commanders.

When i first saw this, I thought ok there wight be something to it. though I felt that one more important problem was being ignored.

When we first see all the names for the Constitution class starships in that early episode and since then, it was grating because ALL of the names chosen seemed taken from American or British anglo-saxon history, ignoring completely the asian, hispanic, Indian, slavic, african and european presence on the planet...not to mention ignoring Vulcans and Tellarites who were founders of the Federation.

There were some small attempts to diversify during the 1960s (the Indian actor as a Starship Captain in Court Martial, the all-Vulcan crew of a nevertheless non-Vulcan named ship), but it seemed that despite a wish to inject diversity in original Trek, there were still limits as to how far they would go.

I get it that STC was first and foremost a fan series and wasn't about to make sweeping changes to ship names and crews, but I still held out hope.
 
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ETW is my next rewatch, but I do recall their chosen rational for excluding women from starship command, and I thought it was total bs.

In “The Ultimate Computer” when we hear that the Excalibur’s Captain Harris was dead there is no reference as to whether Harris was a man or a woman. Harris could have been a woman and we’d never know.

In ETW they had a perfectly good setup for tension in the story—the fact that Garrett was cagey and touchy about what happened in her past. And they would have laid to rest Janice Lester’s claim that she was barred from starship command because she was a woman. No, she was barred because she was unstable and lacked the temperament, just like Kirk said in the hearing.

Giving the character the name of Garrett and her line at the end that, “Maybe one day a Garrett will command an Enterprise.” was yet another exercise in pointless fan service. They just couldn’t resist it.

Years ago I wrote a short story where Kirk finds himself sitting on a board where Finnigan has been charged with gross insubordination to a Federation official. Sitting on the board is Kirk, the commander of Starbase 16 and Captain Lisa Marquette of the repaired Excalibur. No raised eyebrows or surprised looks—it was just accepted without question. That was my way of refuting Janice Lester without even bringing the issue up.
 
"Embracing The Winds" - 3/5

Stardate 6295.3 - Spock's promotion to Captain of the starship Hood is challenged by a female Starfleet officer.


I've had lots of thoughts about this story. And while on the surface it does try to comment on a still relevant subject I find it's really a story about not much at all. Very little is really happening here despite it being dressed up to seem like it's more than it really is.

Forgive me for briefly revisiting some well trodden ground over the decades since TOS first aired.

Way back in TOS' first season we saw, for the very first time, the bulk of Star Trek's unaired pilot "The Cage." Side note: I believe the pilot episode was original called "The Menagerie," but when they elected to build a framing sequence around the bulk of the original footage to create TOS' first and only two-part episode they retained the original title for that two parter. From there onward the original pilot episode in its unaired form has been known since as "The Cage."

In that original footage we saw one of Gene Roddenberry's early ideas for Star Trek in which the ship's first officer, the most experienced officer aboard second only to the Captain, was a woman. And during most of the events depicted in the episode we see Number One actually in command of the Enterprise. And it is commendable that nowhere in the episode do any of the characters remark on the unusualness of a woman in command. Within the context of the story it's just accepted as completely normal,

This was actually a significant social statement in the 1960s. During that time women before and after Star Trek were gaining more prominent roles in film and television. But here Star Trek was proposing that a woman could command a mixed crew aboard a highly sophisticated deep space spaceship. This was akin to depicting a woman in command of a frontline naval vessel.

And nobody balked. Not even the network NBC. Despite Roddenberry's later assertion that NBC resisted the idea of a woman second-in-command the truth was NBC actually rejected the idea of Roddenberry casting his well known extramarital girlfriend, Majel Barrett, in the role. NBC also didn't think Majel Barrett was a strong enough actress for the role. Nonetheless NBC liked the pilot enough to tell Desilu to try again with a second pilot, this time with a story that felt more action/adventure oriented.

So NBC had a number of specific request: give us a story with more action, give us a more racially mixed crew, ditch the satanic looking Spock character (they felt he might be two disturbing for viewers) and recast the role of Number One.

Recast the role of Number One. Not eliminate the character of Number One. Apparently NBC had no issue with the character given women at that time were breaking out in more prominent roles on television, and some of them leading roles. They just didn't like Roddenberry's blatant nepotism.

However, that's not the story Roddenberry told for decades. He always maintained the network rejected the idea of a woman as the ship's second-in-command. But there is no evidence to substantiate that. More likely Roddenberry seized on that excuse to explain to his girlfriend rather than NBC didn't like her and resented his obvious favouritism. And he stuck to that story.

Now back to the context of "The Cage." We were being shown a competent woman in command of a starship and nobody blinks over it. Within the context of the universe Star Trek was depicting it follows that if a woman can be in command in the Captain's absence then she could actually be promoted to command her own ship. It's a logical deduction.

Alright, be that as it may Roddenberry makes changes with his concept, recasts some characters, defies the network to keep Spock and elects to drop the Number One character (which NBC did not request him to do). From there on throughout the series we never again see a woman in command of a Starfleet vessel, even temporarily, even though we do see women with the rank of Lt. Commander. Even so nowhere throughout the series is it explicitly said or suggested a woman cannot command a starship.

And then in the last episode of the series, "Turnabout Intruder," we get a sloppily written story about a former lover of Kirk's who seeks revenge by swapping identities (literally bodies) with him. Her goal is to steal away his cherished career and identity and take it for herself.

That's a doozy of a story in itself, but it gets more intense than that. Janice Lester claims that Starfleet doesn't accept women in command... Oops, wait, that's not what she actually says, even though for decades since many viewers insist that's what she actually means.

No, what she actually says (to Kirk) is, "Your world of starship Captains doesn't admit women." And the interpretation of that line of dialogue is what fans have been arguing over for decades. For the detractors they insist that line is an apt reflection of 1960's sexism. And this despite the fact that no one, particularly NBC, had ever objected to a woman second-in-command all the way back to Star Trek's original pilot episode.

Now for those who might not be familiar with the episode "Turnabout Intruder" allow me to add a little more context in regard to the character of Janice Lester. Lester, or more accurately Lester's identity as portrayed by Sandra Smith and William Shatner, is an intelligent yet calculating individual who is inescapably bitter over Kirk's rejection of her in favour of pursuing his career and his ambition to be a starship Captain. It really sticks in her craw. She is so consumed with this over the years she cooks ups a crazily elaborate scheme to rob Kirk not only of his identity, but even his body. She even intends to rob him of his life by wanting to kill him so no one can discover the truth.

Yeah...thats not really working out at all well. Because from the start Lester (in Kirk's body) behaves erratically. She tries to be casual and unassuming yet she makes Kirk look short-tempered, irritable and impulsive. This is so obviously not the Captain Kirk which we the viewers and the crew of the Enterprise are familiar with. Something is most definitely wrong.

Meanwhile Kirk (trapped in Lester's body) regains consciousness and realizes what has happened and he manages to convince Spock (through a mind meld) of what's happened. Great! Now it's a matter of convincing everyone else of what's happened.

This is kinda where it gets (more) stupid. The crew of the Enterprise has seen some pretty fantastic things in their travels, including people being taken over by other consciousness--re: "Return To Tomorrow." So it doesn't wash that few people aboard can believe what is being claimed that Lester has taken over Kirk's body. And during the so-called official hearing never is it never formally stated it is Starfleet's policy that a woman cannot command a starship. If ever there was a time for this official policy to be stated this is it...and not a word. In fact all that is said, by Kirk, is that Lester could not command because of her lack of training and temperament. Her lack of training and temperament. Wow, that sounds a lot like why R.M. Merrick ("Bread And Circuses") was passed over for starship command.

So it looks like Starfleet passed on Janice Lester, not because she was a woman, but because of the red flags of her mental or psychological capacity. But for anyone with a victim mentality, which Lester clearly has, that simply can't be the reason why she was rejected.

Now with that context let's get back to the interpretation of that line of dialogue fans have been debating for decades: "Your world of starship Captains doesn't admit women." Let's remember that Lester is really bitter and resentful that Kirk left her to pursue his career and ambition. Indeed she is insanely bitter and resentful. Even though she has convinced herself Starfleet Command is a collection of sexist pigs she is saying, "Your world of starship Captains doesn't admit women." "Your world," Kirk's world, Kirk's chosen life doesn't admit room for women, or more specifically room for long term relationships (although Lester is understandably thinking of herself specifically).

Note when Lester claims Kirk’s “world” of starship Captains—his chosen career—doesn’t admit women he doesn’t argue with her. He agrees and states she tortured him for it. What is he agreeing to? Well he thinks Lester is gravely ill and knows it’s not worth arguing with her over it anymore because he can’t win. He is agreeing that his career doesn’t have room for her or any long term relationship.

Throughout TOS we have seen intelligent, competent and rational women in positions of responsibility even though, with the exception of "The Cage," we never got to see one formally in command (until TAS' "The Lorelei Signal" where we see Uhura take command). Now along comes Lester and she is obviously intelligent, but she is also unarguably not rational and competent.

We are never given any backstory details of what Lester was doing at Starfleet way back when. There seems to be some suggestion she might have been trying to get on the same command track Kirk was on, but she doesn't cut it whereas he obviously does. And to rub salt into the wound Kirk moves on with his career and leaves her behind. For someone who can't accept her own failings that's gonna sting and fester.

Now let's get back to STC"s "Embracing The Winds" where they decided to take Lester's claim, that she was barred from command because she was a woman, at face value without question. My guess is they didn't really think this through. I doubt they even dissected "Turnabout Intruder," "The Cage" and the entirety of TOS the way I did above. They just take Lester's claim as valid.

Now let's look at the rationale given in STC why we see no woman in command of a starship. And note they specifically say Constitution-class starship. That implies women can and do command other classes of ships. It's even acknowledged Commodore Gray has commanded a ship even though it wasn't a Constitution-class. And we further learn that Starfleet has no such formal or official policy banning women from commanding a Constitution-class starship. It's apparently an informal understanding to placate the Tellerites when they joined Earth in Earth's war against the Romulans a century earlier. And it's also interesting that Kirk doesn't even seem to know this unspoken policy is in place. Hell, you'd think something like that wouldn't really be a secret.

Now along comes Commander Garrett who is petitioning to be granted command of the starship Hood. And she is claiming she has been passed over for command because she's a woman. It also turns out Garrett has some question marks in her service record that she is touchy and defensive about. It should also be noted that nowhere do they mention whether Garrett has any prior command experience, something I think would really matter before being given command of one of Starfleet's jewels.

There are other things I could bring into this discussion, real world elements dealing with sociology and psychology, but I think I've rambled on enough about this. What it all boils down to is I'm not impressed by how they dealt with this subject and how they told this story. I find it sloppy, ham-fisted, weak, not at all well thought out. Even if they had chosen to address this more directly in TOS I trust those writers would have done it better. Then again...they did write "Turnabout Intruder" and yet even that is better written than "Embracing The Winds."

I think this whole idea could have been better addressed if they had simply rewritten a story like "Court Martial" where Garrett is at the centre of an incident where they evaluate whether she is suitable to be given command, or continue in command, of the Hood.

I spent a fair number of words rehashing the issue of “Turnabout Intruder” because STC elected to base an entire story on what fans have debated for decades—what is actually being said in “Turnabout Intruder.” Do you believe is TOS’ message of inclusiveness and the evidence that supports it or do you default to it being just another example of 1960’s sexism?

Two nitpicks to add. In the shuttlecraft scene at the beginning of the episode it's blatantly obvious they had an incomplete set as the seats in the shuttlecraft are just random chairs. I guess it was too challenging to recreate the original shuttlecraft seats seen in TOS. My other criticism is them again inserting McKennah pointlessly into the story in place of McCoy. In fairness Michelle Specht is obviously a better actor than Chuck Huber so she is getting more screen time, but she really felt out of place here. Deja vu? Just as Roddenberry wanted to give his girlfriend a feature role it looks like Vic Mignogna wanted to give his fiancee the same. But in fairness both women were capable actresses.

They also make a point of showing us how Chekov earns his Lieutenant stripes because you gotta make that setup for TMP. But in fairness that could have been done in TOS without any foreknowledge of what was to come ten years later.

"Embracing The Winds" is slickly produced and looks good, but this is definitely one of their weaker efforts. It's very contrived and there just isn't much meat on the bone here besides looking nice. I was tempted to rate it lower, but I'm willing to give it a 3/5. That means it's just okay, but nothing to write home about.

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This was actually a significant social statement in the 1960s. During that time women before and after Star Trek were gaining more prominent roles in film and television. But here Star Trek was proposing that a woman could command a mixed crew aboard a highly sophisticated deep space spaceship. This was akin to depicting a woman in command of a frontline naval vessel.

Throughout TOS we have seen intelligent, competent and rational women in positions of responsibility even though, with the exception of "The Cage," we never got to see one formally in command (until TAS' "The Lorelei Signal" where we see Uhura take command).
I had seen Turnabout Intruder a few times over the decades, but in my mind I had never had the idea that women were kept out of command positions and that infamous quote had never really stuck in my mind...I think it was actually after I joined this site that I saw a few people pushing that theory that I became aware of it.

I can believe that it was the network pushing for prominent females rather than Gene Roddenberry, because we were constantly reminded that women were still the ones fetching coffee and doing secretary work (signing those future pads, and writing meeting notes at conference room gatherings)...Yes, I know seldom there are men giving a pad to sign to Kirk, but not that often...One step forward, but 2 steps back...

I agree with you about seeing Specht taking McCoy's job, but for this episode it was for such an unfunny segment, I really don't know why they went on with it...

Despite that Scotty's boarding the Hood and his peril was so obviously a repeat of DOOMSDAY MACHINE (with even the same music added), I did like some bits - Scotty being a great leader, the guy playing Hadley not knowing what to do, Chekov pulling a Hail Mary...

I'm not sure what that moment during the countdown between Scotty and Uhura was supposed to mean, and even worse it wasn't followed up on. No mention of Mira Romaine? I thought fan films would have jumped on that story and had Scotty having a fabulous romance with her...

But yeah, as i said, EtW was heavily cribbing from COURT MARTIAL and also DOOMSDAY MACHINE.

I remember the casual racism towards Vulcans was there in OG Trek, but I still could have done without it in EtW, when Kirk and Garrett put down the Vulcan Commodore...

But i did enjoy the formal uniforms again, the tense episode on board of the Hood, seeing Erin Grey again (I was so in love with her at 14- Grey in STC, and Gil Gerard in New Voyages as an Admiral, awesome)

Edit: and yeahhhh, my teeth were grinding near the end when they just HAD to add that comment about Garrett's daughter or granddaughter someday getting her own ship...
 
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What NBC did or didn't want as regards women's characters isn't entirely clear, as we only have secondhand accounts regarding the role of Number One. Roddenberry said the network didn't believe her in charge of anything and that audiences reacted with a "who does she think she is?" Herb Solow is the one who went on record that NBC didn't like the overall casting of the first pilot and wanted a do-over for the second on everyone but Hunter and Nimoy, and also that they didn't like the nepotism of Gene hiring his then-mistress and/or that she wasn't strong enough to carry the part. Both men had axes to grind: Roddenberry with the network and Solow with Roddenberry, so exactly where the truth is may be impossible to tease out.

There's also the matter of audience testing, which Harvey researched for an article in our queue but hasn't had an opportunity to finish.

I'd have to go back through the GR papers to verify that I am recalling correctly that the character of Number One was mentioned in some post-Cage paperwork, and I'm pretty sure Sam Peeples suggested making Number One into the ship's computer.
 
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