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Revisiting an old friend

WRT Voyager's state, Ron Moore had a big problem with that, saying something to the effect that the audience would pick up on it. I think it's fair to say a lot of the audience did and it did hurt the show to some degree. Moore, from what I've read in his comments, wanted to make the show grittier and darker and thought that Braga was on board with that. When DS9 folded and Moore went over to VOY, apparently Braga had done a 180 turn around to Moore's ideas, so Moore walked and ended up applying them to his BSG reboot.
I'm familiar with Moore's views and frankly I don't have much regard for them. After all, it was Braga who wanted to make "Year of Hell" a year-long arc, only to be shot down by UPN. I daresay that if Moore had had his hands tied by a studio during DS9 or with nBSG his viewpoint would be rather different. In any case, the show's a done deal and there's not a lot of point in going over old ground. I know Moore has a lot of fans; I'm most certainly not among them, but he's as entitled to his opinion as anyone. To each their own. ;)

What's actually interesting with Voyager is that there are many fans who are unhappy with certain different aspects of the show but despite that they still love the show and the characters.

So there must be something special with Voyager after all! :)
Agreed. It definitely had something that made / makes me much more willing to overlook its flaws than I am with other shows. For me, it's the characters - Chuckles aside, I like all of 'em. It makes up for a lot where I'm concerned. :bolian:
 
Awww, cut Chakotay some slack. :p
He wasn't that bad. I liked him when he was in command of Voyager. It didn't happen very often, but he was a good leader and the crew responded well to him. Scorpion II and Unimatrix Zero II come to mind as good episodes where Chakotay was in command of Voyager.
 
To each their own, Akiraprise. :D

For me, the bloke had all the charisma and appeal of a fence post, but if others like him I don't have a problem with it. :bolian:
 
To each their own, Akiraprise. :D

For me, the bloke had all the charisma and appeal of a fence post, but if others like him I don't have a problem with it. :bolian:

I agree, and for some reason your "fence post" comparison brought up the image of Chakotay being paired with Bujold's Janeway. The horror!:alienblush:
 
Awww, cut Chakotay some slack. :p
He wasn't that bad. I liked him when he was in command of Voyager. It didn't happen very often, but he was a good leader and the crew responded well to him. Scorpion II and Unimatrix Zero II come to mind as good episodes where Chakotay was in command of Voyager.

Plus he didn't crash the ship like he did with all those shuttles. How awesome is that? :D
 
WRT Voyager's state, Ron Moore had a big problem with that, saying something to the effect that the audience would pick up on it. I think it's fair to say a lot of the audience did and it did hurt the show to some degree. Moore, from what I've read in his comments, wanted to make the show grittier and darker and thought that Braga was on board with that. When DS9 folded and Moore went over to VOY, apparently Braga had done a 180 turn around to Moore's ideas, so Moore walked and ended up applying them to his BSG reboot.
I'm familiar with Moore's views and frankly I don't have much regard for them. After all, it was Braga who wanted to make "Year of Hell" a year-long arc, only to be shot down by UPN. I daresay that if Moore had had his hands tied by a studio during DS9 or with nBSG his viewpoint would be rather different. In any case, the show's a done deal and there's not a lot of point in going over old ground. I know Moore has a lot of fans; I'm most certainly not among them, but he's as entitled to his opinion as anyone. To each their own. ;)

Y'know, you're right about Braga and YOH. I heard that that was supposed to be a long arc. It's a real shame it wasn't, because that's exactly the dose of reality that I would've liked to see on VOY.

Actually, could it be that YOH was the concept/direction that Moore discussed with Braga? Is the timing right? Moore came aboard during season 3 right? Or was it season 4?

WRT YOH, I liked that episode but it also kinda frustrated me too, because, in the end it was all wiped away. It was like an entire season of VOY condensed into one episode and then wiped away! You're left feeling, what the hell was the point of that? How can you get anymore drama from it or story-telling directions if it's all wiped away in the end. Plus, we'd seen it before with Kes in "Before and After." The captain Nemo analogy with Annorax was kind of interesting though, and I did like seeing a direction for VOY that imo should've happened (without destroying the ship in the end, of course) but never ever did. It's definitely not among my favorite VOY two-parters though. Those would be Scorpion, Dark Frontier, and Equinox.
 
Awww, cut Chakotay some slack. :p
He wasn't that bad. I liked him when he was in command of Voyager. It didn't happen very often, but he was a good leader and the crew responded well to him. Scorpion II and Unimatrix Zero II come to mind as good episodes where Chakotay was in command of Voyager.

Plus he didn't crash the ship like he did with all those shuttles. How awesome is that? :D

That's because Tom was usually driving the ship. Chakotay just told him where to go. :lol:

For me, the bloke had all the charisma and appeal of a fence post, but if others like him I don't have a problem with it. :bolian:
I know, I'm just teasing. I try to find something to like in all of the characters.

Neelix is my least favorite character. But he wasn't a douche either. He was very likeable, tried hard to please the crew with his cooking and what not. I just found him rather annoying at times. Especially when he would rag on Tuvok. Leave the guy alone. :lol:
 
Y'know, you're right about Braga and YOH. I heard that that was supposed to be a long arc. It's a real shame it wasn't, because that's exactly the dose of reality that I would've liked to see on VOY.

Actually, could it be that YOH was the concept/direction that Moore discussed with Braga? Is the timing right? Moore came aboard during season 3 right? Or was it season 4?

Braga came to VOY after DS9 ended. This would have been at the start of Season 6.

I would have enjoyed a year long arc with the YoH too. As long as there wasn't a reset at the end.
 
I agree, and for some reason your "fence post" comparison brought up the image of Chakotay being paired with Bujold's Janeway. The horror!:alienblush:
I think it's fair to say it would have been a very, very different show. :lol:

Actually, could it be that YOH was the concept/direction that Moore discussed with Braga? Is the timing right? Moore came aboard during season 3 right? Or was it season 4?
As Akiraprise said (even if he did get the names around the wrong way :D), Moore's (very) brief term with the show was in S6, by which time UPN had steered the series firmly away from anything resembling arcs, "grittiness" or anything else that Moore (apparently) considered worthwhile.

(Having made it clear I'm not a fan of Moore I will say I didn't mind "Survival Instinct" and he could have added something good to the series...but I'm not sorry he didn't continue with Voyager, either.)

WRT YOH, I liked that episode but it also kinda frustrated me too, because, in the end it was all wiped away. It was like an entire season of VOY condensed into one episode and then wiped away! You're left feeling, what the hell was the point of that? How can you get anymore drama from it or story-telling directions if it's all wiped away in the end.
Fair enough. For me, the episode works because it shows us how Voyager's crew would have dealt with the situation they found themselves in in "Year of Hell". Had they been waging a series of hit-and-run battles with a formidable opponent, they'd have prevailed. I appreciate why people don't see it that way but for me it succeeds because it tells us this crew will find a way to deal with pretty much anything.

Plus he didn't crash the ship like he did with all those shuttles. How awesome is that? :D
That's because Tom was usually driving the ship. Chakotay just told him where to go. :lol:
Yeah, even Chuckles couldn't stuff up when he was just telling Paris where to steer. :p

I know, I'm just teasing. I try to find something to like in all of the characters.
Yeah, I know. ;) I just never found any redeeming features in Chuckles. :D

Neelix is my least favorite character. But he wasn't a douche either. He was very likeable, tried hard to please the crew with his cooking and what not. I just found him rather annoying at times. Especially when he would rag on Tuvok. Leave the guy alone. :lol:
Tuvok fan that I am (go away, kim :p), Neelix's attitude to him didn't bother me anywhere near as much as, say, Paris or assorted others who'd occasionally rave on about Vulcans being too staid (or whatever). Neelix - for lack of a better expression - didn't know any better. Paris and co. ought to have. But again, to each their own. :D
 
Y'know, you're right about Braga and YOH. I heard that that was supposed to be a long arc. It's a real shame it wasn't, because that's exactly the dose of reality that I would've liked to see on VOY.

Actually, could it be that YOH was the concept/direction that Moore discussed with Braga? Is the timing right? Moore came aboard during season 3 right? Or was it season 4?

Braga came to VOY after DS9 ended. This would have been at the start of Season 6.

I would have enjoyed a year long arc with the YoH too. As long as there wasn't a reset at the end.

You're right!! That was really late in the game for any drastic changes to the tone and direction of the show, unfortunately.

But, returning to my original thought, is it possible that Braga's concept for YOH originally sprung from his discussions with Moore as to what Moore would do with Voyager? Moore did say he'd had discussions with Braga regarding what he perceived to be Voyager's problems before he came over to the Voyager writing staff. He said Braga initially appeared to be onboard with his ideas. After he got there, Braga wasn't. Moore thought it was because Berman or maybe the studio shot them all down, I believe.
 
Actually, could it be that YOH was the concept/direction that Moore discussed with Braga? Is the timing right? Moore came aboard during season 3 right? Or was it season 4?
As Akiraprise said (even if he did get the names around the wrong way :D), Moore's (very) brief term with the show was in S6, by which time UPN had steered the series firmly away from anything resembling arcs, "grittiness" or anything else that Moore (apparently) considered worthwhile.

(Having made it clear I'm not a fan of Moore I will say I didn't mind "Survival Instinct" and he could have added something good to the series...but I'm not sorry he didn't continue with Voyager, either.)

Fair enough. For me, the episode works because it shows us how Voyager's crew would have dealt with the situation they found themselves in in "Year of Hell". Had they been waging a series of hit-and-run battles with a formidable opponent, they'd have prevailed. I appreciate why people don't see it that way but for me it succeeds because it tells us this crew will find a way to deal with pretty much anything.

You're right, it does work on that level. But, if it wasn't for the over-used temporal reset button of VOY (which, imo, Berman and Braga went waaay overboard with as a plot device), we could also have had ramifications of what happened in YOH. That's what I thought was a shame.
 
I'm not sure where Braga got the "year of hell" concept from; it's not impossible that he came up with it on his own, though. I also don't know why Braga (apparently, and according to Moore - has Braga ever corroborated his version of events?) changed his mind. I do know that Michael Piller made it clear that, at some stage, UPN more or less dictated what sort of show they wanted Voyager to be and in order to keep it on the air it seemed the show runners had to go along with it. My recollection of Moore's remarks on Voyager (and it's been a while since I read them) is that he trashed the wrong people for not making it the sort of show he thought it should be, and he went off and did something else instead.

In any event, at this distance it doesn't really matter. We can only wonder what Voyager may have been if Braga and co. had been given the sort of licence Moore enjoyed on DS9 and nBSG. For me, that's about all there is to Moore's comments on Voyager. I know others don't share that viewpoint and that's fine. ;) I just don't think it really matters this far down the track.

Edit: rocketscientist, I quite agree that some long(er)-term effects of "YoH" would have added to its impact. Again, though, it seemed UPN wanted a non-serialised show with episodes they could run whenever they chose without having to bother with what order they should be screened in.
 
As Akiraprise said (even if he did get the names around the wrong way :D), Moore's (very) brief term with the show was in S6, by which time UPN had steered the series firmly away from anything resembling arcs, "grittiness" or anything else that Moore (apparently) considered worthwhile.
D'oh. :o
Too many thought trains running through my mind at once. One must have derailed. :lol:
 
I just finished watching through Season 2 and felt like doing a rundown, so here goes:

"The 37s" - As I said in the other thread, the main weak points of this episode were the newly awakened 37's holding the Voyager crew hostage, the failure to show the human cities, and Noonan's last-ditch declaration of love to Earhart. Everything else I liked. However, I really, really wish this had been the finale to the first season, rather than the second season opener. The ending had more sense of closure than that of opening a whole new pallette of episodes.

"Initiations" - I don't think I had ever seen this one before now. If I had, I'd completely forgotten that Aron Eisenberg had guest starred on Voyager. While I enjoyed his and Beltran's performances, I thought the chest-thumping premise was cliched and tired. Actually, I feel that way about the Kazon in general, so this episode was bound to have me rolling my eyes a bit.

"Projections" - I love Barclay - always have. The episode suffers a bit from the audience knowing that whatever is going on, the Doctor isn't really Lewis Zimmerman hallucinating in his lab. But it was sort of entertaining to watch the Doctor try to figure it all out.

"Elogium" - I pretty much hate this episode. I really like Jennifer Lien, but when she goes extreme, she gets too weird for me. And speaking of too weird, all her pre-natal antics were just over the top. I did appreciate the emotional issues she and Neelix had to deal with, and I found Neelix's reactions very sweet. And the episode does have the redeeming factor of introducing Samantha Wildman's pregnancy, though the timing of that always really bothered me. Either she brought some fertilized eggs along, or someone's been playing with the timeline. Oh well, I love her anyway.

"Non Sequitur" - I liked the idea here, that hitting the wrong space/time speed bump could alter one's history. It was fun to see Harry back home. Libby does nothing for me, though, and the way home worked much too well given how the alien described Harry's chances of success. It was like TNG's "Parallels" without the fun of multiple dimensional hops along the way.

"Twisted" - Had me just as frustrated as the crew with all the wandering around and accomplishing nothing. Disappointing when it all turned out to be a happy floaty trip through the special effects machine.

"Parturition" - Talk about STUPID episode titles... But I really enjoyed this episode, mainly because it resolved the oh-so-tiresome irrational jealousy Neelix kept spewing at Tom. I like my Neelix friendly to a fault, willing to give any and everyone the benefit of the doubt. I thought their scenes together on the planet accomplished their reconciliation nicely, and I heaved a sigh of relief in the end with an "at last" feeling in my heart.

"Persistence of Vision" - While it was interesting to see some of the crew's deeper desires, most of this one fell flat to me.

"Tattoo" - Good and bad here. I like early-seasons Chakotay for the most part, so learning about his past is something I enjoyed. I'm torn on the alien influence on ancient earth tribes - I don't hate the idea, but I don't think it came across as well as it might have.

"Cold Fire" - Like this one very much; like Suspiria, like the potential for Kes' abilities, pretty much like it all.

"Maneuvers" - The Seska subplot always bothered me, because as smart as Seska was, she should have known better than to choose the Kazon for her allies. But I like Chakotay, and I like that in the early seasons he actually got opportunities to do things. Granted, running off by himself may not have been the smartest thing to do, but it was selfless and showed initiative.

"Resistance" - This one gets so many extra points for Joel Grey's guest appearance that they drown out any possible story weaknesses, even if I could think of any, which I can't. You simply can't go wrong with Joel Grey, and I'm heartbroken that he's not mentioned once in the Season 2 special features.

"Prototype" - This is the first of two really nice vehicles for B'Elanna this season. You knew from the beginning that the robot would end up being eeeeevil, but B'Elanna's emotional journey helped make up for the predictability factor.

"Alliances" - Oh man, this was great until the ending. Janeway preaching the virtues of the almighty Prime Directive and the unassailable values of the Starfleet code made me ill. The fact is, the show needed to move away from TNG's vanilla reputation and get its hands dirty, and this show was the PERFECT opportunity to do so. And frankly, here's where Seska should have jumped off the Kazon wagon and joined the Trabe. She'd have been ten times more menacing a threat with the freedom to actually put her strategies into play herself instead of "Yes, Maje"-ing her way through.

"Threshold" - I can't. I couldn't sit through it. I'm sorry. I did love how in the special features Braga basically apologized for how awful it was. :lol:

"Meld" - Stellar. I love Lon Suder - another superb guest star (Brad Dourif) completely left out of the special features. There's really no flaw here. Tuvok gets a chance to shine, and we get a great character to see again later.

"Dreadnought" - B'Elanna's second moment. I didn't buy that the computer wouldn't acknowledge that it wasn't in the Alpha quadrant, but other than that, the story was solid.

"Death Wish" - This is one of the few good reasons to allow Q in the Delta quadrant (the other being his presence gave us Susie Q, whom I love). This season really had outstanding guest stars, though, didn't it! Gerrit Graham made a convincing and sympathetic Q, and the episode came pretty close to the genius of "The Measure of a Man" in my book.

"Lifesigns" - This is another one I'm not sure I'd ever seen before. Very, very sweet episode, largely due to the endearing guest actress.

"Investigations" - I'm very glad that "A Briefing with Neelix" was ... ahem ... brief. What is an overall excellent premise is tainted in a couple ways. First, the Doctor's snippy, overbearing behavior is a problem all too prevalent in the early seasons. And second, the treatment of Chakotay. It really bothers me how the writers increasingly marginalize him until he becomes a powerless figurehead of a character. I get the feeling more and more that they're trying to strengthen their female captain by weakening the male first officer. And that's a real shame. There was NO reason to abuse his authority the way they did.

"Deadlock" - This was really a classic episode. I was very glad that Samantha Wildman's baby was allowed to live. :) And questionable science aside, it's always fun to see duplicates play off each other. Mulgrew ate it up, and it shows.

"Innocence" - I know a lot of people don't like this episode, but I do. So many people don't seem to like child actors, but I found the girls here quite precious (the little boy was too whiny, I admit). The story does suffer a bit from dumb-aliens-syndrome; if they'd just TOLD the captain what was going on, it would have saved a lot of grief. Of course, the episode would have only lasted 15 minutes too. I liked the idea of a species' elderly returning to a childlike state; in a lot of ways, our elderly do the same thing without the benefit of childlike bodies.

"The Thaw" - I think this episode is a good example of a good idea gone bad. Michael McKean's guest performance just couldn't rescue this one. There were a lot of elements I actually found intriguing. I liked the "choric" element used in a lot of the fear characters' lines to be very creative. I work with elementary thru high school drama, and choric speaking is a great category displayed a little bit here to nice effect. But the overall tone is just hard for me to swallow, as is the personification of fear to the point of it actually having the power of life and death. My suspension of disbelief snapped like a rickety rope bridge.

"Tuvix" - Throughout the piece I kept begging, "Can we keep him, mom, please?" A powerful episode with no easy answers. Here my disbelief in the cause of the merge was easily suspended by the truthfulness of the emotions in the situation. The guest actor did a PHENOMENAL job of merging Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips believably. I genuinely did want to keep the character - even as I would have regretted the loss of Tuvok and Neelix. A side benefit was the opportunity for Janeway and Kes to deepen their relationship.

"Resolutions" - Ah, what never was. Had the writers allowed Chakotay to remain the man he was in the beginning, I would have been the most rabid J/C shipper you can imagine, and this episode is great evidence of why. The two actors could express fabulous chemistry with one another, and I would have LOVED to see what two equal leaders could have accomplished on that ship. Instead they neutered Chakotay and handicapped Janeway to the point where she couldn't have a real relationship. The ship-side part of the plot was quite wonderful, though I found Tuvok's unreasonable adherence to the captain's order at the expense of the collective judgment of his crew to be ... illogical. ;) I do REALLY hate the ending, how Janeway and Chakotay are so determined to go back to the way things were and to erase the things they learned together on the planet. :( One of the saddest endings of an episode in the series.

"Basics, Part I" - HOW are we STILL in Kazon territory?!?! Aaaarrrgh, this drives me crazy. I like the plot; I like the fight; I like the result of them being stuck on the planet. I do NOT like that we are STILL fighting the stupid Kazon!!! It is SO time we left the mad dogs behind, people! And I'm sorry, but even WITH Seska, these guys still come across as angry Pakleds with bad hair. They have just never been a believable serious threat to me, and the fact that they're still nipping at Voyager's heels after two years is just too much. *sigh* I felt a little sorry for Suder, wanting so badly to have some purpose now that Tuvok's training has begun to give him some stability. I'll save my comments on Chakotay's fatherhood until I see part two. Overall pretty unsatisfying. I could see any number of Delta quadrant species managing to overtake Voyager, but NOT the Kazon. :mad:

Overall, I have to say this was a strong, engaging season of Voyager. I appreciated the fact that the difficulties of being far from home were still a weekly struggle. At this point I could still buy a devastated ship being recovered the next week because the overall struggle for survival was still a real part of almost every episode. Characters are growing - some in good directions (Janeway, B'Elanna, Neelix, Tom) some not-so-good (Chakotay, Chakotay, did I mention Chakotay?). And still, I love them all and look forward to Season 3 with eager anticipation.
 
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^^
I can only agree too. Great review of my all-time favorite Star Trek season. :techman:
 
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