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Reverseing warp drive

topcat

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
In several of the early TOS books, scotty had the ability to reverse the direction of the ship when it went to warp. IE they could go in forward and reverse directions. Supposedly the trick was somehow making the plasma flow from the rear of the nacelle to the front.

The issue is, although the novels aren't usable cannon, how could it have been done?
 
Going by TOS visuals, the warp engines did not have significant limitations there. In "Balance of Terror", Sulu apparently flew the ship on reverse at extreme warp. And in the opening credits, the ship seems to zoom past at a nose-down orientation...

I guess the warp field might shaped to propel the ship in any arbitrary direction, but dead ahead is the most efficient. Whether full reverse means bending the field 180 degrees, or reversing it the way you suggest... Well, Sulu did appear to choose reverse for the "BoT" escape, suggesting it's efficient enough to save their skins.

(Or was "full astern" a heading rather than an order to proceed butt first?)

Timo Saloniemi
 
For what it's worth to this discussion: In the game Star Fleet Battles, you are allowed to fly your ship in reverse. This creates some interesting tactics, the most famous being the Kaufman Retrograde. In SFB's sister game, Federation Commander, you can also fly in reverse, but it costs twice as much energy as flying forward, thus limiting the usefulness of such tactics.
 
I can see how reversing at warp would be relatively simple, regardless of the orientation of the ship, since it is space that is being warped. How does one reverse at impulse though? Aren't ships propelled by ions out of the rear of the ship? I know they have hydrogen thrusters to change direction. I really struggle with the manoeuvrability of the NuEnterprise. Seems to me you could only do that with some kind of anti-grav tech otherwise the backwash would be immense? And antigrav tech doesn't help much in space? Very confusing.
 
Whatever impulse engines do, spitting out stuff from the nozzles for Newtonian thrust isn't likely to be it. After all,

1) there's no correlation between how much the impulse nozzles glow and how the ship moves,
2) many impulse nozzles don't allow for any sort of an exhaust jet because that would just hit ship structures, and
3) even those that do allow for rearward jetting don't have their nozzles anywhere near a realistic thrust axis.

Supposedly, then, the "nozzles" are just tailpipes, just as stated in ST6. They vent out waste products (heat, byproducts, whatever), and they do that all the time, not just when the ship is supposed to be moving.

Mind you, some real-world tailpipes have a secondary function of providing additional propulsion - piston-engined aircraft may have their exhausts vented aft for that tiny bit of extra push. They may have the tailpipes facing forward (or down or up or sideways) equally well, though. Perhaps some Starfleet impulse engines use exhaust gases for similar boosting purposes?

And antigrav tech doesn't help much in space?

Why not? It's not just a tech for negating the pull of nearby planets - it's a tech that pulls crewmen towards the decks on which they stand, thus clearly providing pull where there originally was none. Such tech could obviously pull a ship forward in empty space if properly applied. Or then turn conventional rockets super-efficient!

In TNG Remember Me, didn't the warp field they showed have a flow pattern?

We have seen that warp fields are very dynamic things, but only in graphics relating to the meddling of the Traveler and his disciple Wesley. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be dynamic normally, too.

Interestingly, while we sometimes hear of warp signatures, evidence on impulse trails is hard to come by. Wouldn't those be commonplace if ships indeed needed tailpipes? Or is there so little exhaust that it can't be told from natural deep space particles except with very special equipment in very special circumstances?

Timo Saloniemi
 
It would appear that if you have thrusters without nozzles, and can move in any direction under impulse power, then it sounds like you got an inertial drive. TOS had more advanced technology than the spin-off series.
 
How so? The very same evidence is there for the spinoffs: "nozzles" that cannot fire jets of hot gas along a thrust axis, movement fwd/back, up/down, sideways, twisting and turning without any sign of rocket blasts, etc.

It appears that rocket-style steering is a backup option available in dire emergencies ("Booby Trap"), but too primitive and low-performance for routine use. It's too bad that ST:TMP introduced this rather silly 20th century style technology to the Trek universe at all - but then again, that movie dumbed down Trek in so many other ways it's difficult to believe in the "upgrades" or "maturing" the movie insists on introducing... Luckily, the TNG era spinoffs forget most about that stuff and return to the magic of TOS (at least when it comes to technology).

Timo Saloniemi
 
Why not? It's not just a tech for negating the pull of nearby planets - it's a tech that pulls crewmen towards the decks on which they stand, thus clearly providing pull where there originally was none. Such tech could obviously pull a ship forward in empty space if properly applied. Or then turn conventional rockets super-efficient!

Interestingly, while we sometimes hear of warp signatures, evidence on impulse trails is hard to come by. Wouldn't those be commonplace if ships indeed needed tailpipes? Or is there so little exhaust that it can't be told from natural deep space particles except with very special equipment in very special circumstances?

What i meant was, gravity is quite a weak force so not much use to attaining high speeds quickly unless, like the Romulans you have an artificial black hole for power.

I suppose anything travelling at impulse is likely to be within sensor range and if it's not, it must have set off so long ago that the trail is cold? More likely, being able to detect a ships' trail negates cloaks and a lot of story tropes. Likely it was never bought up as it would spoil the narrative.

It appears that rocket-style steering is a backup option available in dire emergencies ("Booby Trap"), but too primitive and low-performance for routine use. It's too bad that ST:TMP introduced this rather silly 20th century style technology to the Trek universe at all - but then again, that movie dumbed down Trek in so many other ways it's difficult to believe in the "upgrades" or "maturing" the movie insists on introducing... Luckily, the TNG era spinoffs forget most about that stuff and return to the magic of TOS (at least when it comes to technology).

Yes, thrusters are used in spacedock, which suggests they are used for slow, careful manoeuvres. The bang from impulse engines is a bit too strong I suppose.

Did TMP dumb down the tech though? Do you mean they started to ignore real world physics or that they started to wind back the clock to real world physics to make it less magical? The less magical and more rooted in real world physics it is, the more I like it.

Ion propulsion is definitely a thing in Trek and would involve using ionised gas to move forward, using as suggested above, projected force fields to redirect the thrust force forward to reverse but it looks like Wikipedia and the Technical Manuals have done the work for us:

"The impulse engines are nuclear fusion engines in which the plasma from the fusion reactor powers a massive magnetic coil to propel the ship. It is a form of magnetodynamic or magnetoplasmadynamic thruster. This is used in conjunction with the ship's warp drive's alteration of the ship's relativistic mass, to achieve mid-to-high sub-light speeds. Thrusters, on the other hand, are closer to the designs of a high-efficiency reactant propellant (i.e. a sophisticated rocket engine) and are usually used for high-precision maneuvers.

Magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) (magneto fluid dynamics or hydromagnetics) is the study of the magnetic properties of electrically conducting fluids. Examples of such magneto-fluids include plasmas, liquid metals, and salt water or electrolytes.

A magnetoplasmadynamic (MPD) thruster (MPDT) is a form of electrically powered spacecraft which uses the Lorentz force (the force on a charged particle by an electromagnetic field) to generate thrust. It is sometimes referred to as Lorentz Force Accelerator (LFA) or (mostly in Japan) MPD arcjet. Generally, a gaseous material is ionised and fed into an acceleration chamber, where the magnetic and electrical fields are created using a power source. The particles are then propelled by the Lorentz force resulting from the interaction between the current flowing through the plasma and the magnetic field (which is either externally applied, or induced by the current) out through the exhaust chamber. Unlike chemical propulsion, there is no combustion of fuel."

So what this would indicate is that the ships should have a tail pipe, that thrusters would be needed to fine tune the ship's direction, that an active warp field is needed to change the relative mass of the ship at higher speeds.

Does this mean that the NuEnterprise should not really be able to perform hairpin turns in an atmosphere without either creating a warp field (bad for life outside the bubble), a massive thrust of super-hot gas (bad for life in its path), hydrogen thrusters, or using a tractor beam as a repulsor (bad for life in its path). I'm still not clear why they needed the warp engines online in STiD unless impulse and thrusters and emergency batteries were all offline and if they were then the ship is once again going to warp to change direction and it does not seem to be doing that? I don't get it.
 
You answered your own question above, the warp drive needed to be on in order to reduce the ship's mass enough for those tiny thrusters to lift it.
 
You answered your own question above, the warp drive needed to be on in order to reduce the ship's mass enough for those tiny thrusters to lift it.

It still doesn't quite gel. Warping space-time in the vastness of space is one thing. Warping it in a planetary atmosphere though - wouldn't that create gravitational and atmospheric carnage?

And if the thrusters are working at all, why not just use them at an earlier stage so the ship isn't crashing into a populated area? The sea is right next door. Once again, I'm not seeing any greatness in the decision-making of Kirk and crew...
 
The Reliant got on just fine without a deflector dish, as did many other ship types.
Clearly there are other technologies at play here.
 
The Reliant got on just fine without a deflector dish, as did many other ship types.
Clearly there are other technologies at play here.

Lots of alien vessels don't have a dish either but presumably a dish is not required to generate a deflector. Still, there must be some kind of advantage to having one or why give one to the finest ship in the fleet? Once again, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense overall. The deflectors of every ship need to be equally good after all. Maybe the dish helps produce a more powerful tractor beam?
 
It still doesn't quite gel. Warping space-time in the vastness of space is one thing. Warping it in a planetary atmosphere though - wouldn't that create gravitational and atmospheric carnage?

Why should it?

I mean, it's a common conceit in science fiction that faster-than-light travel requires some sufficiently `flat' spacetime. That's a good way to explain why the characters need to have spaceports and space stations and the like. But it isn't like space near the surface of a planet is that curved. It's detectable, surely, but if the warp field equations are so sensitive that the difference between the flatness of space near the Earth's surface and the flatness of space in, er, space matters, then they're surely too sensitive to be used in practical applications.

In any case we've seen going to warp from sea level isn't apparently a problem.
 
Most of what we see the dish used for is "special ops" functions, such as blasting Borg cubes, disrupting passing Nexuses etc.
I would guess that while the dish is a useful tool to have in a top of the line starship, it is far from essential in flying a FTL vessel. Heck, the warp field itself probably deflects most spacebourne particles, just by the way it functions.

It still doesn't quite gel. Warping space-time in the vastness of space is one thing. Warping it in a planetary atmosphere though - wouldn't that create gravitational and atmospheric carnage?
Except we're not talking about warping space at FTL speeds, just generating a subspace field sufficiently enough to lower the inertial mass of the ship - much as O'Brien did in the pilot episode of DS9
 
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