Reunion...and repercussions

[EnriqueH]

I just saw Reunion this morning and really enjoyed but I have some reservations about the ending.

1. Did they establish that Gowron was the new Klingon leader at the end? I believe that was left unclear, though one would assume since Duras is killed by Worf.

2. I wasn't sure if Worf would've been thrown out of Starfleet for killing Duras. Though he was entitled to his actions as a Klingon, clearly his sworn duty is to Starfleet. I thought he was probably let off easy with a simple "reprimand" on his file. Still, since Starfleet has many species serving, one would assume there are certain leeways for an individuals belief system or way of life. I feel conflicted by this.

3. Worf sending Alexander to go live with his parents seemed like Worf cleaning his hands of Alexander, which I did not like. The Enterprise allows for families in the 24th century, and after Alexander loses his mother, it seems rather cold blooded and irresponsible to let him off like that. I didn't hear or notice any compelling reason that Worf would do that.

Still, I enjoyed seeing Worf finally nail Duras. And it was good to see K'empic one last time. Loved Gowron.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

1. Did they establish that Gowron was the new Klingon leader at the end? I believe that was left unclear, though one would assume since Duras is killed by Worf.

Effectively, yes. The only two contenders for the chancellorship were Duras and Gowron. If Duras is dead, and Gowron is not, then by definition, Gowron wins.

I wasn't sure if Worf would've been thrown out of Starfleet for killing Duras.

No. Worf is untouchable for his actions in this episode. Picard, technically, shouldn't even have given him a reprimand.

This situation (Worf killing Duras) occurred on a Klingon vessel, involved only Klingons, and was done according to Klingon law and tradition. Starfleet had no right to interfere or to question Worf's actions in any way.

Just because Worf is in Starfleet doesn't change the fact that he is still Klingon - he has the absolute right to take part in his people's culture and traditions. When Worf killed Duras, he wasn't acting AS a Starfleet officer - just as a Klingon. As it should be.

 

[EnriqueH]

Right, but Worf wasn't on leave.

Did he ask permission to debark the ship? Isn't that some sort of breach of Starfleet regulation?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm in Worf's corner. But I'm wondering if there's some sort of real-world lapse here. I would've assumed that disciplinary action would've been a bit more stern.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Right, but Worf wasn't on leave.

Did he ask permission to debark the ship? Isn't that some sort of breach of Starfleet regulation?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm in Worf's corner. But I'm wondering if there's some sort of real-world lapse here. I would've assumed that disciplinary action would've been a bit more stern.

Worf wasn't breaking any regs simply by going over to Duras' ship. Those Klingon vessels had been rendezvoused with the Enterprise for awhile. Simply going from one such ship to another would be seen as normal.

And like I said, this was a purely internal Klingon matter: Worf killed Duras because Duras killed K'Ehleyr. It had nothing to do with Starfleet in any way. Worf was exercising his rights as a Klingon.

About the only thing I can think of that would justify the "reprimand" is so Picard could claim plausible deniability if anyone accused Starfleet of interfering in the selection of the next Chancellor. Meaning: Picard basically had to give Worf a reprimand - perhaps he didn't want to, but was 'required' to do so by a technicality. If that's so, I can buy that.

 

[Makarov]

It is definitely odd to me that Worf did not face repercussions. If he had done it on the Enterprise I wonder if that would have changed things. I thought it was more because Picard sympathized with the reason he had done it.

Klingon culture is so violent I can't imagine Starfleet would just let him kill people whenever there's a Klingon reason to do so. It would be like allowing Seven of Nine to assimilate people now and then, I mean it is part of her culture.

 

[doubleohfive]

I just saw Reunion this morning and really enjoyed but I have some reservations about the ending.

1. Did they establish that Gowron was the new Klingon leader at the end? I believe that was left unclear, though one would assume since Duras is killed by Worf.

Basically. Though as we see later, it's not as simple as that.

2. I wasn't sure if Worf would've been thrown out of Starfleet for killing Duras. Though he was entitled to his actions as a Klingon, clearly his sworn duty is to Starfleet. I thought he was probably let off easy with a simple "reprimand" on his file. Still, since Starfleet has many species serving, one would assume there are certain leeways for an individuals belief system or way of life. I feel conflicted by this.

Of course the Starfleet personnel (Picard, Riker) would have objected to Worf doing what he did. But Worf also knew that he was a Klingon and he had room the do what he did by Klingon law and tradition. So, no, he shouldn't have faced any repercussions beyond the reprimand Picard gave him, which likely stemmed from Worf's likely having been on duty when he beamed over to fight Gowron.

3. Worf sending Alexander to go live with his parents seemed like Worf cleaning his hands of Alexander, which I did not like. The Enterprise allows for families in the 24th century, and after Alexander loses his mother, it seems rather cold blooded and irresponsible to let him off like that. I didn't hear or notice any compelling reason that Worf would do that.

I sort of agree. At the same time, Alexander only knows he has a father for like four minutes before K'Ehlyr is killed, and Worf is actually right that as a child, Alexander deserves to have a home and a family, none of which Worf could provide at the time but his parents could. Either way, it's a moot point because again, as we see later, it's not a permanent fix for the situation.

 

[Squiggy]

Just because Worf is in Starfleet doesn't change the fact that he is still Klingon - he has the absolute right to take part in his people's culture and traditions. When Worf killed Duras, he wasn't acting AS a Starfleet officer - just as a Klingon. As it should be.

True. But a couple of things:

1. When you're in uniform you're supposed to obey the laws and regulations of whatever uniform you're wearing. That's the entire point of a

2. It may be your culture's tradition to kill a herd of goats in the town square but that might be a bit illegal.


Laws trump regulations and regulations trump tradition.

If your superior officer says "Hey, do be a peach and don't kill the prospective emperor of our ally, no matter how much of a douche he may be" then you don't kill him.

 

[MacLeod]

And whilst Worf actions led Gowron to becomming the next Chancellor he was also responsible for his removal from office (though in the later case he had approval from his CO)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I suppose Worf could have claimed self-defense, if Riker hadn't been there to see it.

 

[doubleohfive]

I suppose Worf could have claimed self-defense, if Riker hadn't been there to see it.

I think it's fairly evident to everyone involved why Worf was over there. Claiming self-defense would be the coward's way out and Worf wouldn't do that.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

This situation (Worf killing Duras) occurred on a Klingon vessel, involved only Klingons, and was done according to Klingon law and tradition. Starfleet had no right to interfere or to question Worf's actions in any way.

Just because Worf is in Starfleet doesn't change the fact that he is still Klingon - he has the absolute right to take part in his people's culture and traditions.

You're mixing two issues here. Yes, biologically Worf is a Klingon, but he's a citizen of the United Federation of Planets, not the Klingon Empire. And we know Starfleet claims extraterritorial jurisdiction over its members since otherwise the Prime Directive would be unenforceable.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Politically speaking, Worf is a dual citizen of the Klingon Empire *and* the Federation.

 

[Timo]

We don't know that. Yes, everything points to him being a UFP citizen. But Klingons have weird ideas about such things: a person can be dead to the Empire despite still breathing. Worf's status as a citizen, warrior or even a lifeform would depend on the whims of the Klingon leadership, and we know that leadership had a lot of whims about him.

Dual citizenship wouldn't allow anybody to escape the legal consequences of breaking one fatherland's laws ITRW. Worf should have been brainwashed for six months like any UFP murderer, unless it could be demonstrated he had killed as part of his profession, under orders.

I wonder if Picard would have lost or gained political points by swearing he had given such orders? Klingons would readily accept his word if he just stated he had chosen Gowron and had chosen to execute Duras for his crimes. "Oh, that wasn't part of my duties as the Arbiter of Succession? Well, it certainly was my duty as a (temporary) Klingon!"

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JD5000]

Worf sending Alexander to go live with his parents seemed like Worf cleaning his hands of Alexander, which I did not like. The Enterprise allows for families in the 24th century, and after Alexander loses his mother, it seems rather cold blooded and irresponsible to let him off like that. I didn't hear or notice any compelling reason that Worf would do that.

It IS rather cold-blooded and irresponsible, and that is part of Worf's character when it comes to making connections with people, including his own son and former mate. It's a character issue that makes several good episodes later on, such as Alexander and Worf's interactions on the Rotarran towards the end of DS9, and Worf's inclusion of his son in he and Jadzia's wedding. The compelling reason Worf sends Alexander off is that he's simply not emotionally equipped to raise a son that doesn't meet his expectations as a Klingon, and doesn't understand Alexander's desire to be something different. He sends him away because dealing with it makes him uncomfortable, and being uncomfortable makes him uncomfortable. Worf justifies this to himself by thinking that it's the best thing for Alexander, and ignoring the fact that he's doing it because he doesn't know how to handle it. It's one of Worf's character flaws.

 

[doubleohfive]

^ Politically speaking, Worf is a dual citizen of the Klingon Empire *and* the Federation.

Where was that ever established? The only time other Klingons treat Worf as anything but an outsider or treat him like shit for his discommendation is when they want something from him. Until Martok showed up, anyway, Klingons always seem to use Worf's adopted heritage with the humans against him, and never seem to acknowledge him as they do other Klingons except to discredit him.

Besides, as others have said, Klingons have weird ideas about how things like civics function, at least compared to humans.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Worf must be a Klingon citizen, or whatever passes for same in Klingon society; his parents were Klingons, he is a member of a very influential Klingon house, and he was born on a Klingon world. (Plus he is allowed to claim the Right of Vengeance in "Reunion", which is presumably limited to Klingon citizens.) And he is of course a Federation citizen as well, otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to become a Federation ambassador.

I agree that Klingons have a unique view of citizenship and politics, but still, the only time that Worf is actually stripped of his standing in the Empire is when he was well into his adulthood. Up until that time, he was as much a citizen of the Empire as any other Klingon was. To be discommended - to have his citizenship taken from him - is proof of that; logically speaking, you can't have something taken from you if you never had it.

 

[EnriqueH]

I think we're all forgetting one thing:

Worf is a STARFLEET officer.

Did he violate any oaths, chain of command, or any other rules by beaming onto the Klingon ship and killing one of the potential heirs to the throne?

It all screams Klingon business, not Starfleet/Federation business, but still...you would think Worf's actions would have some repercussions towards the Federation and its relationship with Klingons. And Worf is a Starfleet officer.

I would've thought the consequences of beaming aboard a ship and killing someone violated some semblance of Starfleet regulation. A reduction in rank?

But I don't know for sure.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Obviously Starfleet has a prohibition against murder. But when Worf killed Duras, it wasn't murder, it was a duel. We don't know, exactly, what Starfleet regs have to say about consensual duels. Especially when they're carried out in accordance with local laws and traditions, which this one was.

As for the relationship with the Klingons? Picard himself pointed out that the Klingon government accepted the situation and considered the matter closed. So there's no real consequences on that point.

 

[doubleohfive]

^ Worf must be a Klingon citizen, or whatever passes for same in Klingon society; his parents were Klingons, he is a member of a very influential Klingon house, and he was born on a Klingon world.

And yet, despite being an alien culture, it's made very clear that by accepting discommendation in "Sins of the Father" he and his children would be outcasts. It's entirely possible the description given there could include the Klingon definition of citizenship.

(Plus he is allowed to claim the Right of Vengeance in "Sins...", which is presumably limited to Klingon citizens.)

Worf claims the Right of Vengeance in "Reunion" after Duras kills K'Ehleyr.

And he is of course a Federation citizen as well, otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to become a Federation ambassador.

Well that would make much more sense, because he was raised by humans and we humans tend to be really persnickety about such things. I've no doubt Worf would have been naturalized by the Rozenkhos. Too, it's probably a requirement in order to be able to join Starfleet/attend Starfleet Academy.

I agree that Klingons have a unique view of citizenship and politics, but still, the only time that Worf is actually stripped of his standing in the Empire is when he was well into his adulthood. Up until that time, he was as much a citizen of the Empire as any other Klingon was. To be discommended - to have his citizenship taken from him - is proof of that; logically speaking, you can't have something taken from you if you never had it.

I was suggesting that as part of his discommendation, his citizenship among Klingons was revoked.

 

[doubleohfive]

Obviously Starfleet has a prohibition against murder. But when Worf killed Duras, it wasn't murder, it was a duel. We don't know, exactly, what Starfleet regs have to say about consensual duels. Especially when they're carried out in accordance with local laws and traditions, which this one was.

As for the relationship with the Klingons? Picard himself pointed out that the Klingon government accepted the situation and considered the matter closed. So there's no real consequences on that point.

Picard also mentions that the various non-human members of the crew all have cultures with rich history and tradition and that he respects them all, as he does Worf's, even if he doesn't agree with the killing parts. That's why Worf winds up with a minor reprimand and nothing more. It may be very alien to Picard and us but for the warrior culture of the Klingons, it's another day at the office.

Why, if Starfleet prides itself on respecting the cultures of other races so much, should Worf be held responsible for following what is perfectly acceptable action in his own culture?

About the only "in" Picard has at that point is nailing Worf for possibly abandoning his post, but even then, Worf was clearly not on duty when he and Alexander came upon K'Ehleyr's dead body. Result: reprimand.