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Retro Sci Fi Urban Legends, Misconceptions, and Assorted Errors

Would his character arc (son and daughter aside) have been that different if he had just been Luke's father's friend?
It seems as if Darth Vader's story was actually fleshed out sometime during the writing of Empire Strikes Back. Not that there's anything wrong with that--but this thread is about Urban Legends. Lucas has certainly done a great deal to create the idea that the full story was always in his mind, when it really came about sometime in 1978 and 79,
 
I think where a lot of the perceived "myths" about what Lucas did and didn't plan mostly stem from people misunderstanding his meaning, often taking him a little too literally. For example; a lot of incredulity is levied at the claim that he had written the entire trilogy, plus the prequels first, but it was too huge to make all at once, so he only used the middle part to make ANH.
In actuality what he actually means when he talks about this stuff is that the early draft was too big and complex in terms of the broad story beats. He didn't literally have 12hours of material scripted out, but what he did have was indeed too much too make to make sense for just one movie, so he took the middle portion, expanded it out into it's own story and grafted on the ending from the longer version. That last part is basically why they ended up re-using the Death Star on RotJ, because that was meant to be the final part of that initial draft.

Would his character arc (son and daughter aside) have been that different if he had just been Luke's father's friend?
As with a lot of the stuff involving the early drafts, it can get a little confusing as Lucas kept recycling character names in different roles (mostly because he didn't want to have to think up all new names each time.)

So what Vader's story was going to be at various points depends greatly on how one defines the character. Vader as we know him is a combination of several different characters that evolved and coalesced across the iterations. The two main ones being the villain's main henchman that showed up fairly early on IIRC, and the protagonist's father who was an aging warrior "more machine now than man" due to all the cybernetic replacements. The former didn't have much going on beyond being a stereotypical heavy, while the latter at one point hands his son off to a Jedi general before sacrificing himself (Vader may have killed him, but I don't' recall exactly.)
 
Except that when you read early interviews with Lucas, such as in the Rolling Stone article mentioned earlier--and available online--his own words tell the story that he didn't have a lot of what became the final movies we saw planned out--and he certainly didn't have episodes seven through nine planned even though at one point he said that he did.
 
You weren't even vaguely familiar with Exodus?

I'll cop to getting much of my religious education from Biblical movies and Dracula flicks.

"What's holy water, Dad?"

I swear, I had never heard of Communion wafers until I read Dracula in sixth grade and my father had to explain the whole bread into flesh, wine into blood business to me, since I had somehow managed to make it to age twelve without hearing about it before. :)

I couldn't figure out why Van Helsing was sprinkling broken crackers in Dracula's coffin. Really!
 
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Would his character arc (son and daughter aside) have been that different if he had just been Luke's father's friend?
I've seen it repeated elsewhere that, to hide the big reveal, the line recorded on set was either "Obi-Wan killed your father" or "Obi-Wan was/is your father." Either way it could have shaken Luke's confidence in what he thought he knew, and Vader could set himself up as a potential guiding figure to show Luke "the true nature of the Force." Or, to use some other dialog I once heard somewhere else, to "see through the lies of the Jedi." :shifty:

Kor
 
I've seen it repeated elsewhere that, to hide the big reveal, the line recorded on set was either "Obi-Wan killed your father" or "Obi-Wan was/is your father." Either way it could have shaken Luke's confidence in what he thought he knew, and Vader could set himself up as a potential guiding figure to show Luke "the true nature of the Force." Or, to use some other dialog I once heard somewhere else, to "see through the lies of the Jedi." :shifty:

I think Laura's question was, what if there had been no surprise reveal, if it had just been what was originally claimed, that Vader had been an ally of Luke's father who turned on him and killed him? In that case, I don't know what Vader could've said to shake Luke's confidence like that.
 
I'm pretty sure the line as stated on set was indeed "Obi-Wan killed your father." It does have the benefit of meshing OK enough with Hamill's dialog and performance to at least make sense, but it was never intended to be anything other than a deliberate obfuscation, and that's never where any of it was ever going to go.

IIRC Hamill and James Earl Jones were the only cast members trusted with the actual script (and for good reason; Prowse is kind of notorious for letting things slip in interviews.) Though even then, Hamill was only told on the day, right before the cameras were about to roll, and of course Jones' work was done in isolation, after the fact.
Out of the crew, only Lucas, Kasdan, Kershner, & I think Kurtz were in the loop. They even kept it away from Kershner initially until they got to the point where he needed to know. They even kept it away from Alan Ladd at Fox, taking no chances that it'd get out!

Again though; Vader's arc had they kept going with how things were conceived in ANH would have been non-existent. He wasn't supposed to be that kind of character. Just a henchman that would have died at the end of the movie with the Death Star. Indeed the shot of his ship tumbling away was done late in production and was achieved mostly in the edit with no new footage of Prowse filmed.
Also remember that the decision to kill off Ben was made during filming when Lucas realised he'd just be having Guinness standing around, not doing much except goading Luke a little over the radio during the battle. So the intent would have been for Ben to still be around for the next movie, and he'd be the one training Luke instead of Yoda. Indeed that decision is what necessitated creating Yoda in the first place. Similarly, the end of the movie was intended to essentially be what we got in RotJ, with the rebels recruiting a tribe of furry natives of a forest moon to overthrow the Empire (albeit by training them to fly starfighters.) But when most of that got lopped off, Lucas was so enamoured by the Wookiees that he made one Han's first mate. Which again necessitated cutting them in half and calling them "Ewoks" when he actually got around to that part. The main take-away here is that storytelling is a process.

Except that when you read early interviews with Lucas, such as in the Rolling Stone article mentioned earlier--and available online--his own words tell the story that he didn't have a lot of what became the final movies we saw planned out--and he certainly didn't have episodes seven through nine planned even though at one point he said that he did.

Yup, that's exactly the mistake I was talking about. You're conflating "has a general idea of the broad strokes and major story beats" with "having the final script all typed up and ready." Again: storytelling is a process.
The thing of it is, we have all the original drafts and can read them ourselves. Everything he said is right there. You can see nascent forms of the whole OT and the PT buried in there. It's not really up for debate.
 
I'll cop to getting much of my religious education from Biblical movies and Dracula flicks.

"What's holy water, Dad?"

I swear, I had never heard of Communion wafers until I read Dracula in sixth grade and my father had to explain the whole bread into flesh, wine into blood business to me, since I had somehow managed to make it to age twelve without hearing about it before. :)

I couldn't figure out why Van Helsing was sprinkling broken crackers in Dracula's coffin. Really!
My only knowledge of anything religious or Biblical comes from media, my immediate family are all atheists, and I was raised hardcore science only. I've only been in a church 2 or 3 times, and none of them were for anything religious. I have enjoyed some of the Biblical stories I've seen, but just as stories and nothing more.
 
I think Laura's question was, what if there had been no surprise reveal, if it had just been what was originally claimed, that Vader had been an ally of Luke's father who turned on him and killed him? In that case, I don't know what Vader could've said to shake Luke's confidence like that.
VADER "Luke, I was your father's best friend, well except for Ben. And your mother of course. And a few others. I guess we were work friends, mostly."
LUKE "Ah, is this going somewhere?"
 
About a decade ago, Dark Horse Comics adapted George Lucas original treatment for the movie(s) into a mini series called "The Star Wars", which was later released as a hardbound collected edition.

If one wants to read/see what the movie could have been like, check with your local library to see if they have a copy.

I've read it and, it's okay, and a little confusing, because the story seems to meander all over the place and it's hard to keep track of characters with similar names but with different appearances and motives.
 
There was also Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which was (and this may be apocryphal) written as a possible sequel to Star Wars. Whether or not that is true, the novel is full of details that include a romantic relationship between Luke and Leia, a different take on the force ghost concept, and on Darth Vader. It also turns the light sabre into something akin to a Swiss Army knife.
 
There was also Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which was (and this may be apocryphal) written as a possible sequel to Star Wars. Whether or not that is true, the novel is full of details that include a romantic relationship between Luke and Leia, a different take on the force ghost concept, and on Darth Vader. It also turns the light sabre into something akin to a Swiss Army knife.

As someone who saw Star Wars in 1977 and read Splinter of the Mind's Eye as soon as it was available in paperback, about a year later, I take Splinter as proof that a lot of what Lucas later said about the development of the Star Wars saga was self-serving hooey. Lucas approved Splinter as an official Star Wars novel, and it's perfectly consistent with 1977 Star Wars and completely inconsistent with 1980 Star Wars. Lucas may have had a very vague sense of the overall story but he was clearly making a hell of a lot of it up as he went along.
 
There was also Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which was (and this may be apocryphal) written as a possible sequel to Star Wars. Whether or not that is true, the novel is full of details that include a romantic relationship between Luke and Leia, a different take on the force ghost concept, and on Darth Vader. It also turns the light sabre into something akin to a Swiss Army knife.
The way I heard it was that Splinter of the Minds Eye started as the concept for a lower budget sequel to the original Star Wars if it wasn't successful, but once it was a huge hit Lucas realized they could go big for the sequel, and released it as a book instead.
This isn't an myth or error, but it is something I've never understood, and it doesn't really deserve it's own thread, so I hope it's OK if I ask it here.
Why did the original Quantum Leap add the whole "only within his (Sam's) lifetime" limitation to Sam's leaping? Was it a budget thing, so they didn't have to spend money on more complicated eras, or purely a storytelling choice?
 
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As someone who saw Star Wars in 1977 and read Splinter of the Mind's Eye as soon as it was available in paperback, about a year later, I take Splinter as proof that a lot of what Lucas later said about the development of the Star Wars saga was self-serving hooey. Lucas approved Splinter as an official Star Wars novel, and it's perfectly consistent with 1977 Star Wars and completely inconsistent with 1980 Star Wars. Lucas may have had a very vague sense of the overall story but he was clearly making a hell of a lot of it up as he went along.
The boldfaced has been widely reported [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_of_the_Mind's_Eye#Background_and_publication]:

In 1976, Alan Dean Foster was contracted to ghostwrite a novelization of Star Wars.[2] Foster was given some drafts of the script, rough footage and production paintings for use as source material in fleshing out the novel.[3] His contract also required a second novel, to be used as a basis for a low-budget sequel to Star Wars in case the film was not successful.[2] Though Foster was granted a great deal of leeway in developing the story, a key requirement was that many of the props from the previous production could be reused when shooting the new film. Foster's decision to place his story on a misty jungle planet was also intended to reduce set and background costs for a film adaptation. Han Solo and Chewbacca were left out, as Harrison Ford had not signed a contract to film any of the sequels at the time of the novel contract.[2][a] Lucas's only request upon reviewing the manuscript was the removal of a space dogfight Luke and Leia undertake before crash-landing on the planet, which would have been effects-heavy and expensive to film.[3]

An additional sequel novel was planned,[4] but by the time Splinter of the Mind's Eye was published, Star Wars had broken box office records. The film adaptation of Splinter of the Mind's Eye was abandoned in favor of Lucas's vision of a big-budget sequel (The Empire Strikes Back).[3] Nevertheless, riding on the success of the film in its first year of release, the book became a bestseller.[5]​
 
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