Restored 1960s VFX of the Enterprise
- Thread starter Lord Garth
- Start date
The TOS-R shots do have a lot of repetition on their own. They added a few different angels, but there's still plenty of reused angles. There's only so much you can do. The shots I dislike most are the EXTREME close up shots in orbit and shots that miss the point of dialog in service of sprucing it up (I've documents The Doomsday Machine problems a number of times).
One of the episodes that got it totally right was Balance of Terror, probably because it was the first and they were more interested in matching than innovating. The BoP in particular looks amazing. That's one of the few episodes I like to watch as TOS-R.
If the original effects looked better in HD, would they have bothered to make new versions? Shows like Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Space: 1999 both had primarily in-camera model effects. Few to no process shots, so the effects aren't a few generations down from the original footage. Both of those series have played on TV and been released on home video with no upgrades. Voyage used the same model footage repeatedly. The DVDs are in standard def, but the film prints were mastered for HD. Reused model shats are part of the genre until the 2000's. TNG used the same beauty passes and dressed up models constantly over 7 years.
I believe the digital FX were not born out of necessity, but an arrogant assumption (and a good helping of fan brainwashing) that any FX work created in the pre-ILM era "must" be inferior / old fashioned, etc, when a number of pre Star Wars films--This Island Earth, The War of the Worlds and Forbidden Planet among them--had excellent spaceship FX that are still impressive in the 21st century.
While we know TOS' miniature shots were used endlessly during the series' production, but some shots, such as--
--were of such high quality (technically and artistically), that locating and cleaning up the original elements would have been worth the effort. The TOS-R versions are so video-gamey, they are a distraction.
The Roddenberry Vault has provided a strong indicator of TOS' miniature shots being well-suited for an upgrade (i.e. cleaning, etc.).
While the in-camera model work for the Anderson and Allen shows were usually top-shelf, i've found that in-camera miniature work is often betrayed by HD remastering, occasionally giving some miniatures the look of a toy, even the 17ft, 3in. Seaview model which was decked out with the most detail and weathering.
If they could have obtained (in 2006) really legit pristine elements like they did for TNG I'd have been all on board. But they couldn't. Even what we've seen salvaged from various newly discovered sources haven't been that much better than the composited shots that they already had. And while they may have had some of the Enterprise shots they certainly didn't have any of the elements that went with them. And what they had (have) does not match the quality of the live action in most cases. But then what they wound up remaking didn't match either, so what do you do?
Again, they could have done it differently, and I certainly would have if I had been The Boss. One thing that makes me spit is when I hear Dave Rossi say "There were only a handful of shots" in TOS so they couldn't just remake those. 1) That's not true and 2) Go look at the first few seasons of TNG and tell me if it's much different. (It's not. TNG taught me what "stock shot" means.) Between "handful of shots" and "new shots for every episode" is the truth.
I have to admit though, when I was looking for ship reference back in the day and all I had was the 1st season I was a little shocked at how the "library" began. The real "wow" shots were second season. And of course season three didn't have ANY!
Again, they could have done it differently, and I certainly would have if I had been The Boss. One thing that makes me spit is when I hear Dave Rossi say "There were only a handful of shots" in TOS so they couldn't just remake those. 1) That's not true and 2) Go look at the first few seasons of TNG and tell me if it's much different. (It's not. TNG taught me what "stock shot" means.) Between "handful of shots" and "new shots for every episode" is the truth.
I have to admit though, when I was looking for ship reference back in the day and all I had was the 1st season I was a little shocked at how the "library" began. The real "wow" shots were second season. And of course season three didn't have ANY!
Thanks. I hadn't watched this episode for a long time, so I watched it last night with the new effects. The comet was beautiful, and indeed the BoP looked great. Strangely, they appeared to replicate the Enterprise shots exactly, including the approach where it's off-axis to the viewer.
Yeah, it would take a good eye, knowledge, skill and a degree of restraint to enhance TOS the way it could/should be.
My overall mindset would be: if they had had a bit more time and money. Also keeping in mind what was and wasn’t possible as well as what was and wasn’t likely—how would they have envisioned doing something as opposed to how it would be envisioned today.
Above all it should look appropriate to the time TOS was made. There was excellent fx work done back in the 1950s-1960s that is still respectable today. Thats what I’d aim for.
I would also resist retconning no matter how tempting. That means no insertion of anything post TOS, such as TAS designs, given none of it would have been on the radar during TOS’ production.
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One of the things that the remaster team seemed to have ignored was the original fx's background movement.
For example, in "Balance of Terror" when the Enterprise fires her proximity phasers we are shown basically the same shot of the Enterprise firing but it would appear the original FX crew took the time to alter the shot to make the star movement fit the scene.
For example, when she is attacking, the stars are moving and receding into the distance at an angle that doesn't match Enterprise's direction which suggests that she is "strafing right" and in the final firing scene where she is "playing dead" she fires her phasers with the stars not moving to show that she is stopped.
If you watch the remastered FX, they straightened her flight path so she is always moving straight ahead when firing. This includes when Enterprise is "playing dead" as when we see her fire phasers she's flying forward although it would have made more sense if she fired while stopped...
Same with "Arena" where the Enterprise goes on defense. In the original FX we see the Enterprise firing in reverse (stars coming towards the camera) presumably to prevent getting quartered while in orbit. In the remastered FX, she's flying forward and firing phasers.
For example, in "Balance of Terror" when the Enterprise fires her proximity phasers we are shown basically the same shot of the Enterprise firing but it would appear the original FX crew took the time to alter the shot to make the star movement fit the scene.
For example, when she is attacking, the stars are moving and receding into the distance at an angle that doesn't match Enterprise's direction which suggests that she is "strafing right" and in the final firing scene where she is "playing dead" she fires her phasers with the stars not moving to show that she is stopped.
If you watch the remastered FX, they straightened her flight path so she is always moving straight ahead when firing. This includes when Enterprise is "playing dead" as when we see her fire phasers she's flying forward although it would have made more sense if she fired while stopped...
Same with "Arena" where the Enterprise goes on defense. In the original FX we see the Enterprise firing in reverse (stars coming towards the camera) presumably to prevent getting quartered while in orbit. In the remastered FX, she's flying forward and firing phasers.
My impression is the new fx team looked at TOS’ fx in a largely superficial manner and concluded, “Oh, yeah, we can do better than this. And we can also make it look more in synch with (then) contemporary Trek productions.”
From the get-go the new fx looked obvious as cgi. It never looked liked polished 1960’s era fx. New things inserted looked nothing like what they could have imagined back in the day. Everything displayed a blatantly obvious contemporary mindset. This was born of the conceit that viewers, new and old, would not accept anything other than a contemporary look.
From the get-go the new fx looked obvious as cgi. It never looked liked polished 1960’s era fx. New things inserted looked nothing like what they could have imagined back in the day. Everything displayed a blatantly obvious contemporary mindset. This was born of the conceit that viewers, new and old, would not accept anything other than a contemporary look.
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Well put. Add the assbrained "updating" of the 1701's shuttlebay, where the shuttle was far too large for the deck in relation to the scale of people in the rest of the habitable areas of the ship--
TOS-R's shuttles / hangar completely upended any perception about the usable space within the ship.
^^ Well, in one respect I can understand the intent. The TOS depiction of the shuttlecraft and hangar were way out of whack. A correctly sized shuttlecraft would have indeed looked bigger on the flight deck, but that might be beside the point.
If Matt Jefferies had had the final say maybe things would have been scaled more correctly, but he didn't so the smart thing might have been to maintain the scale used in the original shot.
If Matt Jefferies had had the final say maybe things would have been scaled more correctly, but he didn't so the smart thing might have been to maintain the scale used in the original shot.
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Well put. Add the assbrained "updating" of the 1701's shuttlebay, where the shuttle was far too large for the deck in relation to the scale of people in the rest of the habitable areas of the ship--
TOS-R's shuttles / hangar completely upended any perception about the usable space within the ship.
I loved how HUGE the shuttle bay looks in the original. Scale/schmale, it's not a documentary.
Yeah, scale out that TOS shuttle bay and tell me what size ship you get. It might even be bigger than SNW. (Which has an even BIGGER shuttle bay!)
Here's a discussion of the flight/hangar deck that includes the idea of scaling the ship to the flight/hangar deck.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-the-bridge-at-a-funny-angle.306619/page-13#post-13717385
tl; dr: @Mytran came up with a figure around 1350' if you insist that the hangar must all be aft of the nacelle pylons (like in TMoST cross-section) but Datin's numbers will almost fit inside a 947' ship if you don't.
So there are your rough upper and lower bounds. Maybe...
TrekkieChannel has a comparison of BOT between original and remastered FX. However these 2 videos include some interviews with David Rossi and Michael Okuda. They apparently wanted to make even more changes but were constrained by the sound effects in the audio.
Datin's model is pretty close to fitting in a 947' ship so long as you ignore the side alcoves. If you want to include them then a length of 1060' or even 1080' would be betterHere's a discussion of the flight/hangar deck that includes the idea of scaling the ship to the flight/hangar deck.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-the-bridge-at-a-funny-angle.306619/page-13#post-13717385
tl; dr: @Mytran came up with a figure around 1350' if you insist that the hangar must all be aft of the nacelle pylons (like in TMoST cross-section) but Datin's numbers will almost fit inside a 947' ship if you don't.
So there are your rough upper and lower bounds. Maybe...
The trailer for Balance had double phaser beams…I’ve not seen that!
I might include TAS for a Sargasso Sea episode. The ships we saw in the Delta Triangle would beTAS ships from other episodes…those shown in The Time Trap were a bit too wild.
Some of the Early sketches here look more like space stations:
https://forgottentrek.com/the-original-series/designing-the-first-enterprise/
I might include TAS for a Sargasso Sea episode. The ships we saw in the Delta Triangle would beTAS ships from other episodes…those shown in The Time Trap were a bit too wild.
Some of the Early sketches here look more like space stations:
https://forgottentrek.com/the-original-series/designing-the-first-enterprise/
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Eventually, 4K will become the standard. I don't know when, but it'll happen eventually. So, they'll want to do another remastering of TOS. Once you start, you can't stop.
I'm hoping that by the time this happens (and it will happen), technology to restore images will have improved to the point where they restore TOS as was in 4K. It's come a long way but still not quite totally there yet.
I'm hoping that by the time this happens (and it will happen), technology to restore images will have improved to the point where they restore TOS as was in 4K. It's come a long way but still not quite totally there yet.
There does come a point when it becomes too much. I already see Shatner's toupee line and Spock's ear seams. What more do we need?
Also, a lot of episodes are put together from lower res sources. Check out "The Omega Glory." The opening teaser varies in quality. 4K won't make this look any better.
I'll go for it if they:
1) restore the original sound mix
2) retore the opening and closing electric violin themes to the correct first batch of episodes
3) fix the issues with some of the scene transitions - they are glitches. Where No Man Has Gone Before has an obvious one as Kirk calls to beam up - they even extended the music cue try to cover it. Also put "You like a wild litle animal" back into The Cage and fix the Enterprise intro shot so it's actually in color.
4) tone down the color tweaks - Kirk's standard tunic was gold on TV not avocado
CBS/Paramount isn't going to do any of that. Trust me, a 4K release will be a straight repackaging, like every rerelease since 2006.
Also, a lot of episodes are put together from lower res sources. Check out "The Omega Glory." The opening teaser varies in quality. 4K won't make this look any better.
I'll go for it if they:
1) restore the original sound mix
2) retore the opening and closing electric violin themes to the correct first batch of episodes
3) fix the issues with some of the scene transitions - they are glitches. Where No Man Has Gone Before has an obvious one as Kirk calls to beam up - they even extended the music cue try to cover it. Also put "You like a wild litle animal" back into The Cage and fix the Enterprise intro shot so it's actually in color.
4) tone down the color tweaks - Kirk's standard tunic was gold on TV not avocado
CBS/Paramount isn't going to do any of that. Trust me, a 4K release will be a straight repackaging, like every rerelease since 2006.
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