Resistance, Before Dishonor, & Greater Than The Sum-taken together

[BryanSorensen]

[/quote]

And fail every time. *Note the Defiant's destruction in First Contact.[/quote]


Uh, the defiant didnt get destroyed...it shows how it actually DID hold up against the borg, ya it got roughed up but it still hung in there

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Well, to be fair, it had gotten the shit kicked out of it, and Worf was giving the command to ram it into the Borg cube when the Enterprise showed up.

 

[Dayton3]

Also, in regards to First Contact, the fleet had caused extensive damage to the Borg cube before Picard and the Enterprise showed up.

Who can say that another 100 ships or so wouldn't have been able to destroy the Borg ship entirely?

 

[Dayton Ward]

Okay, so 100+ ships....to maybe destroy a single Borg ship?

If anything, that's an argument against conventional combat, and for exploring unorthodox means of defeating them.

 

[Dayton3]

Okay, so 100+ ships....to maybe destroy a single Borg ship?

If anything, that's an argument against conventional combat, and for exploring unorthodox means of defeating them.

In the Dominion War, the Federation apparently had few problems coming up with 600 ship fleets or more.

Thus, if say 200 ships would be required to destroy one Borg ship, then Starfleet could easily destroy the largest force of Borg ships ever actually sent at one time against the Federation (one).

But back on point, I'm saying that REPEATEDLY using unconventional means to destroy a Borg ship in the novels is just doing what we've seen time and time again in the series and the movies.

Having a novel where the Borg are stopped by conventional starship combat would actually be something new in the Trek universe.

 

[LightningStorm]

It's been quite a long time since I saw FC. I thought it was destroyed there. However, my point still stands that it didn't do what it was intended to do (successfully fight the Borg). Really anything short of a Federation version of a highly adaptable, regenerative, enormous block of weaponry manned by 1000s of people who don't mind being cannon fodder if necessary, isn't going to handily defeat the Borg -- or really offer much in the way of resistance.

Having a novel where the Borg are stopped by conventional starship combat would actually be something new in the Trek universe.

Proof positive that 'different' doesn't always mean 'better.'

 

[Defcon]

In the Dominion War, the Federation apparently had few problems coming up with 600 ship fleets or more.

Thus, if say 200 ships would be required to destroy one Borg ship, then Starfleet could easily destroy the largest force of Borg ships ever actually sent at one time against the Federation (one).

But the Borg would have to play along for that, and although we've seen them attack with one ship again and again there's no guarantee that they'll continue to do so

My take on the Federation building "anti-Borg" ships was that they're not necessarily designed to destroy the Borg with brute force, just to hold their ground long enough to put "unconventional" plans into motion.

 

[Dayton3]

It's been quite a long time since I saw FC. I thought it was destroyed there. However, my point still stands that it didn't do what it was intended to do (successfully fight the Borg).

It was implied that the Defiant class ships were supposed to be used in large "swarm type" attacks against Borg ships. (given their small size and small crews). That is dozens of Defiants against a single cube.

Not operating as just a typical starship which is how the Defiant was used in First Contact.

 

[Thrawn]

It's no secret that I think a lot of dayton's previous arguments are in contradiction with the fundamentals of the Star Trek universe, but in this case I think he actually has a point. 200 Defiants knocking out a Borg cube WOULD be cool.

I will point out, however, that the Ent E was the only ship that could get to the cube in time in Resistance, and that the cube was... rather a different threat entirely, in Before Dishonor, for better or for worse. In order to tell the stories that these books told, there was no way for a conventional attack to fit into the narrative.

Could the whole entire thing have been rewritten, from the pitch stage forward? Sure, but that's true of everything. I've always found complaining of this sort rather counter-productive. It's like watching Independence Day and complaining it isn't a romantic comedy - you may enjoy romantic comedies more, but that's not what that story was about.

You may enjoy fleet battles more, but that's not what those books were about.

That said, even given their subject matter and scope, I felt the execution was lacking in both; neither Resistance nor Before Dishonor numbers among my favorites. But it's not because they didn't have a 200-Defiant battle.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ I was just irritated that they weren't romantic comedies.

 

[captcalhoun]

BD did have a conventional battle and it went as well as Wolf 359

 

[ialfan]

As someone who has read all three of these books in the last two weeks, I must say that taken separately Resistance and Before Dishonor leave something to be desired but Greater Than The Sum wraps the story up nicely as a sort of Pre-Destiny Borg trilogy.

I wasn't too keen on the Borg as insects concept in Resistance or the Borg absorbing everything in sight in Before Dishonor but GTTS helped to explain a lot of the changes in the Borg we've seen over the years. I'm quickly becoming a fan of Christopher L Bennett's writing. I've read Places of Exile, Orion's Hounds, and GTTS in the last two months greatly enjoying all three of them.

The Borg simply can't be beaten by sheer firepower while having any credibility so creative solutions are required. If you're watching Star Trek for the battles you may be occasionally satisfied but that's really just a small part of the greater Star Trek universe where things are usually solved with creative solutions instead of violence.

I think one of the way's these novels excel is having the character's experience true loss and showing that the universe is not quite the utopia it was once presented as. In particular, if Janeway or Hugh had survived it would have seemed too convenient. I don't think Janeway should have died in a TNG book but it happened and certainly could have been handled worse.

I enjoyed the focus on Picard and his relationship with Beverly and the Borg in these novels. I never cared one way or another about their relationship during the series or movies but these novels have made me care which is a good thing. Hopefully they'll both survive Destiny. The TNG relaunch is certainly not as bad as nearly everyone makes it out to be. I now wonder if I can force myself to wait until December to read the Destiny trilogy at once.

 

[KRAD]

^ I gotta ask -- did you read Q & A between Resistance and Before Dishonor?

 

[ialfan]

^ I gotta ask -- did you read Q & A between Resistance and Before Dishonor?

Yep, I really liked it as well. Having a Q novel helped space the Borg story out a bit and created a nice flow having Q in Q & A and Lady Q in BD. It was a great story in it's own right too continuing Q's character and tying a lot of ends together at the same time. It's my second favorite novel in the TNG Relaunch right behind GTTS.

I guess I'm a pretty fast reader. It doesn't help that I find it hard to put a book down once I've started it, either. Last month I read all four Twilight novels in the span of two and a half weeks.

 

[KRAD]

^ Cool, thanks!

 

[Dayton3]

The Borg simply can't be beaten by sheer firepower while having any credibility .

Where do you get that idea?

The Federation seems to have won quite a few battles over the years with sheer firepower.

 

[JD]

Yes, but not with the Borg.

 

[Sci]

The Borg simply can't be beaten by sheer firepower while having any credibility .

Where do you get that idea?

The Federation seems to have won quite a few battles over the years with sheer firepower.

One of the fundamental premises of the Borg is that they simply cannot be defeated with conventional forces most of the time, because they will inevitably adapt. I can think of exactly one battle where the Borg were defeated by Federation forces with conventional means: When Voyager destroyed the small Borg rectangle probe in "Dark Frontier, Part I." Even then, the delivery system was unconventional -- transporting a photon torpedo aboard instead of launching it out of a tube.

I would suggest that you should read another series of science fiction novels if you want to read about military starships engaged in large and epic battles that win the day, because clearly Star Trek doesn't have what you're looking for.

 

[Dayton3]

The Borg simply can't be beaten by sheer firepower while having any credibility .

Where do you get that idea?

The Federation seems to have won quite a few battles over the years with sheer firepower.

I would suggest that you should read another series of science fiction novels if you want to read about military starships engaged in large and epic battles that win the day, because clearly Star Trek doesn't have what you're looking for.

Well, a person can dream can't they?

And who knows what the future will hold.

 

[William Leisner]

The Borg simply can't be beaten by sheer firepower while having any credibility .

Where do you get that idea?

The Federation seems to have won quite a few battles over the years with sheer firepower.

But no wars.