Reset Button at the end of Star Trek? *Potentially Major Spoilers*

[Cary L. Brown]

Okey dokey. Nero's just a guy with a deprived childhood and a great sense of loss.

Not so much. We've been given a HUGE insight into the film's plot in the recent "TNG-era prequel" comics (which are, supposely, considered "part of the film" by the film's writers... or something to that effect, anyway).

The thing is, Nero isn't always a bad guy.

Spoiler: partial summary of the prequel comic plot...

He's there, in the "prequel comics," doing his level best to work with Starfleet, with Ambassador Picard and Captain Data, and Spock of course, in an effort to save his home. And when he discovers that Vulcan has the science to save his home, and they choose not to share it with him (for fear of it being used as a weapon), he promises that if his home is destroyed and they could have prevented it, he'll take revenge on them over it.

Sure comes as a great cost to all those Vulcans. I mean, if we want to get into intentionalism here-I'm sure that Nero, if tried, would be brought up on, at the very least, some sort of mass murder charges.

Oh, no question... but bear in mind, from HIS perspective,

Spoiler: More secret stuff, if you haven't read the comic prequel...

he's taking revenge on a planet full of mass-murderers... AND getting the tool to save his own world (in the future) in the bargain.

You're probably right on the terrorism, but I didn't imply that Nero is trying to achieve a political aim. He's either trying to restore Romulus or trying to restore his wife. Nero's intent is actually irrelevant to his importance as a villain. It's what he does to others and to history with the Narada that is important.

Not arguing that point. I'm in complete agreement that what he's doing is terrible. Please don't interpret it any other way. I'm not taking his side... but it's a valuable skill in life, being able to see the other guy's perspective... even if (or ESPECIALLY IF) you don't share it.

Nero is the villain... but he's also (along with the population of his homeworld) a victim. Finding this out was the first thing that actually tilted my perspective on this movie back towards the positive side of the scale in a long while, actually... it means that he's NOT, after all, a "two-dimensional mustache-twirling villain."

My disagreement with your comment, earlier, was that you made it so clear that Nero has to die. I don't think so. I think that it would be more meaningful, more entertaining, and more satisfying in every way if he were to end up redeemed... and if it were Kirk and crew (alt-Kirk if you prefer) who decide NOT to kill him, but instead to save him (AND the two planets, plus... though Kirk wouldn't necessarily know it, restoring him to where he was supposed to be all along).

What if the way that Kirk wins is by NOT "killing Nero" but instead... at the end... helping him succeed (thus "resetting" everything)? By "changing the rules of the test" so to speak.

Isn't that better Star Trek than "kill the generic bad guy of the week?"

Hitler can write Mein Kampf till the cows come home. It's when Hitler invades Poland, the Low Countries, France, Russia, et al, and orders up the Holocaust that he needs to be destroyed.

Yes, but what if you could go back in time and fix that one thing that caused Hitler to become the monster he grew into... and instead, he turned out to be the guy who discovered the cure for cancer?

I'm saying that Nero is consequential and must be dealt with: otherwise, Kirk might as well kill the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man or the Bum of the Month.

And what I'm saying is... killing somebody isn't the only option, or the best option. And "not killing" isn't the same as "letting it go."

You're talking revenge... or maybe even justice... but you're not talking about POSITIVE ACTION. Only punitive action.

If you had the choice... "kill the bad guy" or "save two planets worth of people"... which would YOU choose?

Defeating Vader and destroying the Death Star was a rite of passage for young Skywalker. Methinks this is what is being attempted here-on a similar scale. Just because Nero is out for vengeance or to restore Romulus does not mean that Kirk doesn't meet the heroic standard by defeating him.

Ah... and you fall into my trap. (just kidding!)

Seriously... did Luke Skywalker DEFEAT Darth Vader? Did he kill him?

Nope... he REDEEMED HIM, didn't he? And Vader was definitely a villain, who committed atrocity after atrocity. The OBVIOUS choice would be for Vader and the Emperor to be killed by Luke and Leia. Having Vader redeemed was more satisfying, though... wasn't it?

Besides, if he didn't meet the standard, all the Trek fans would say that Pine is a candy-ass and want the Shat back in the chair. And we can't have that, can we?

Well, you never know, Pine could be the guy who makes the remake of "Corvette Summer" or something...

 

[Kryton]

He can play Jason Nesmith in Galaxy Quest 2.

 

[T'Bonz]

Having Vader redeemed was more satisfying, though... wasn't it?

No, it wasn't. The first 2 SWs (old SWs, not the new crap,) were great. The third movie was treacly, complete with cutesy bears . All it needed was everyone singing kumbaya at the end to make the picture complete.

Vader was a great villain. Redeeming him ruined the character.

 

[Gojira]

I've been thinking that this would be the case. Nero screws things up. Events change. Spock unscrews things up. Events return to normal. The look of this film is way too different from TOS. Something has to give, like a reset. Or, maybe not. Only time will tell.

I think simply you're right in that Nero screws things up old Spock and the young crew set things right at the end.

However, the design elements are not going to change because there really is not an in universe explanation for the changes to begin with as much as some fans would like there to be one.

They changed the design elements because they wanted to update the look.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Having Vader redeemed was more satisfying, though... wasn't it?

No, it wasn't. The first 2 SWs (old SWs, not the new crap,) were great. The third movie was treacly, complete with cutesy bears . All it needed was everyone singing kumbaya at the end to make the picture complete.

Vader was a great villain. Redeeming him ruined the character.

Okay, then... we'll just have to disagree. Myself, I >personally< found it far more satisfying. But then again, I've never been one who sees people in simple black-and-white terms, either, nor one who believes that there's anyone who really thinks that they're anything but the "hero of the story" when the look at matters. They may be WRONG (according to everyone else) but that doesn't stop them from thinking that they are.

Nero is getting what he sees as "justice." And, potentially, saving his homeworld in the bargain. Vader was bringing about order in a chaotic galaxy. Both, as seen from the perspective of the characters themselves.

On the other hand, I DO believe that all Ewoks are inherently evil and must be exterminated.

 

[section9]

Nope... he REDEEMED HIM, didn't he? And Vader was definitely a villain, who committed atrocity after atrocity. The OBVIOUS choice would be for Vader and the Emperor to be killed by Luke and Leia. Having Vader redeemed was more satisfying, though... wasn't it?

Besides, if he didn't meet the standard, all the Trek fans would say that Pine is a candy-ass and want the Shat back in the chair. And we can't have that, can we?

Well, you never know, Pine could be the guy who makes the remake of "Corvette Summer" or something...

I swear to God, if Nero cuts NuKirk's right hand off with a light saber, I am going to hunt you down until the day you die and haunt you unto eternity.

No, wait, that's EpV.

---------

True enough, Luke redeemed Vader.

However, the whole let's engage in Transactional Analysis With Nero thing could rob the film of its dramatic oomph. Remember, Khan is memorable because he was a twirling-moustache villain.

If everything got fixed in the end, it would be like finding just the right humpback whales to save Earth from an interplanetary probe of unknown origin. It would be, you know, contrived?

 

[T'Bonz]

Okay, then... we'll just have to disagree. Myself, I >personally< found it far more satisfying. But then again, I've never been one who sees people in simple black-and-white terms, either, nor one who believes that there's anyone who really thinks that they're anything but the "hero of the story" when the look at matters. They may be WRONG (according to everyone else) but that doesn't stop them from thinking that they are.

I quite agree that the vast majority of people (beings) would be nuanced and not all good or all bad. However, SW to me was a rollicking adventure with characters who were - well, movie characters. Meaning they could be more heroic than the usual human would be, or more villainous. Darth Vader was a delicious villain, like Gul Dukat was before they ruined him. It was a shame to turn him.

Not to mention that I just didn't buy it. He had been bad for too long. I couldn't buy the turnaround. I remembering sitting in the theater thinking, "Bullshit!"

Nero is getting what he sees as "justice." And, potentially, saving his homeworld in the bargain. Vader was bringing about order in a chaotic galaxy. Both, as seen from the perspective of the characters themselves.

On the other hand, I DO believe that all Ewoks are inherently evil and must be exterminated.

We agree on the (marketing potential only) Ewoks. Hey kiddies, after Mom and Dad take you to see Luke Skywalker kick Vader's ass, stop at Toys-r-us and have them buy you a cute 'lil Ewok teddy bear. Never mind if you already have 50 stuffed animals at home, you HAVE to have this one! It's Star Wars!

Without seeing STXI, I can't comment (yet!) on Nero or his motives or what drives him. As for Vader, I think he should have stayed true to what he was. Especially, as the events in the later SW movies showed, he went from a braggart, unpleasant brat of a kid, to an equally unpleasant somewhat weak young adult, so it FIT that he could be seduced to the dark side. The transformation at the end of ROTJ just didn't fit. Not then, not after the newer movies came out.

 

[BenRoethig]

BTW, totally ripped off awards ceremony at the end where Kirk, Uhura, NuSpock, and NuMcCoy get Medals for saving Earth. JJ's "up yours" moment to Lucas. You heard it here first.

Which in turn ripped off every military awards ceremony there's ever been.

 

[The Academic]

Back to the topic at hand...

I SO hope that there won't be a reset button at the end of the movie - and I seriously don't think there will be one...

[Otherwise the entire move would have been a waste of time and money, wouldn't it?

Back to the original TOS timeline? This would be pretty difficult without having DeForest Kelley or James Doohan at hand, not to mention the unsurmountable age and body mass gap between then and now (don't get me wrong, the Shat rules, now and forever)...
Back to the post-Nemesis TNG timeline? The general public (not to mention a certain number of long-time fans) is so fed up with the never-ending technobabble and the über-Shakespearean self-importance and the more-than-boring repetetiveness (did I miss something?) of Picard (sorry, Mr Stewart), Riker, Data/B-4 and Janeway, that it is highly unlikely it will make any money at the box office...]​

Ergo...
My guess is that Star Trek XII/2012 (whatever one wants to call it) will continue in the same parallel universe/quantum reality. It will tell a completely new story or give some of the classic episodes a new spin and more background (a nod to us Trek geeks - casual viewers probably would neither realize nor mind). The possibilities are limitless (again)!

 

[stonester1]

I'm with Cary myself. Even in the Star Wars universe, they try to deal with their characters as people, rather than mere archetypes. I found Vader's redemption moving as a kid. Still do now.

Same with Gul Dukat. Again, DS9, characters were more than what met the eye, and Dukat demonstrated this.

Always applaud that.

 

[JoeZhang]

Maybe the film will end with "see you next time for the same old shit" and the next film will feature Chris Pine doing an impression of William Shatner playing Kirk.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If this will be such a different timeline/universe than TOS, how do we reconcile that with what Abrams said at WonderCon:
"The story adheres to canon pretty much as well as the original series adhered to canon."

So not at all.

I was about to mention that.

 

[wellsweb]

Maybe the 'reset button" could have something to do with the Kobyashi Maru Test. I can just see it now...

CADET KIRK walks into the office of ADMIRAL STYLES, head of Starfleet Academy. CAPTAIN PIKE and CAPTAIN GARROVICK are with the admiral.

STYLES
"Well, Cadet, you certainly made a mess of the simulator. What exactly were you thinking?"

KIRK
"With respect, Sir, I don't believe in the 'No Win' scenario."

STYLES
"So you guaranteed yourself a victory by reprogramming the test?"

KIRK
"No, Sir. I simply wanted victory to be possible, Sir."

GARROVICK
"Well it was certainly an original approach. I think you should be commended."

PIKE
"I've never seen a more unique approach to the Kobyashi Maru test, present company included."

KIRK
"Thank you, Sirs."

STYLES
"Don't pat yourself on the back too hard, Mr. Kirk. I'll grant the fact that while you deserve a commendation for original thinking, you circumvented the spirit of the test. The Kobashi Maru isn't mandatory. It never has been. But every cadet who has taken the test has come away with a deeper understanding of who they are. I can't help wondeing what you have learned. Unofficially, that was one hell of a performance. Dismised."

KIRK leaves the office and STYLES turns to PIKE and GARROVICK.

STYLES
"Well, what do you think, gentlemen?"

GARROVICK
"I like him. He's got guts. And there's something about him that reminds me of my son back home."

PIKE
"I like him, too, Admiral. He's got some rough edges, to be sure. But under the right captain, I'm sure he'll mature into a fine officer."

STYLES
"One of you will get him. Who wants him more?"

GARROVICK
to PIKE "I'll flip you for him, Chris. Got a coin?"

PIKE
"No, that's OK. I really need a science specialist."
to STYLES "Who's the Vulcanian I keep hearing so much about?"

STYLES
"His name is Spock, and he's an outstanding student. You won't be disappointed. By the way, we're supposed to refer to them as 'Vulcans', not 'Vulcanians'. Now then, gentlemen, if you will excuse me, I have some work to do. Dismised."

STYLES and GARROVICK
"Yes, Sir."

 

[The Academic]

Hey!
I ABSOLUTELY HATE Bobby Ewing/"Dallas" shower scenes, not to mention holodeck simulations a la ENT "These are the Voyages..."! Please come up with something better, will you?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

^The movie will end Voyager-style with Kirk ordering the reversing of some techno gizmo that will make the events of the last two hours nothing more than false tension.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

^The movie will end Voyager-style with Kirk ordering the reversing of some techno gizmo that will make the events of the last two hours nothing more than false tension.

C'mon... some of you must've seen "Deja Vu."

For those of you who didn't, and might still... don't read this.

Spoiler: deja vu synopsys

The lead character gives his life at the end of the movie... but by doing so sets everything right. So even though he dies... the events that he fixed mean that the "earlier" version of him will now never become who he eventually did. And so we have him... sort of... back at the end of the film. Still the same guy, but not having experienced the terrorist attack which he gave his life to stop (and which never happened).

What if ST-11 is something like that... disgraced Cadet Kirk sacrifices himself (and the Enterprise?) to stop the event that

Spoiler: plot-driving event

eventually destroys Romulus

. So right after Enterprise blows up... we see them alive, again, but where they're supposed to be.

And, of course, we know the characters, because they're "really" the same characters we just met through the prior movie, just in a better version of reality.

Nero was a villain... but that was another life.

 

[Vance]

Jeeze, people.

The new timeline that the movie establishes will be the new timeline for the 'franchise'. That means, for the powers that be, everything Trek from 1996 through 2008 has been thrown out the window. How this continues to surprise anyone is beyond me.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^The movie will end Voyager-style with Kirk ordering the reversing of some techno gizmo that will make the events of the last two hours nothing more than false tension.

C'mon... some of you must've seen "Deja Vu."

For those of you who didn't, and might still... don't read this.

Spoiler: deja vu synopsys

The lead character gives his life at the end of the movie... but by doing so sets everything right. So even though he dies... the events that he fixed mean that the "earlier" version of him will now never become who he eventually did. And so we have him... sort of... back at the end of the film. Still the same guy, but not having experienced the terrorist attack which he gave his life to stop (and which never happened).

What if ST-11 is something like that... disgraced Cadet Kirk sacrifices himself (and the Enterprise?) to stop the event that

Spoiler: plot-driving event

eventually destroys Romulus

. So right after Enterprise blows up... we see them alive, again, but where they're supposed to be.

And, of course, we know the characters, because they're "really" the same characters we just met through the prior movie, just in a better version of reality.

Nero was a villain... but that was another life.

Who's to say which version of Trek reality is better?

 

[The Academic]

Jeeze, people.

... everything Trek from 1996 through 2008 has been thrown out the window.

Come on, come on... Nothing has been thrown out of the window (by the way, why exactly 1996 and not already earlier?).
For canon's sake, everything that happened in the TOS, TNG et al. prime timeline will remain as it was and will continue as somebody will see fit (novels, comics, Star Trek Online and what have you). Everything that happens after nuTrek will happen in a different timeline, in a parallel universe, in another quantum reality, what have you. It's just the same as the mirror universe (only better, I hope) or 'Parallels' or 'Twilight', but pulled through, without a reset button in the end.

Just remember, many of the parallel history/what if episodes within the entire Trek franchise are considered to be fan favourites.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Jeeze, people.

... everything Trek from 1996 through 2008 has been thrown out the window.

Come on, come on... Nothing has been thrown out of the window (by the way, why exactly 1996 and not already earlier?).
For canon's sake, everything that happened in the TOS, TNG et al. prime timeline will remain as it was and will continue as somebody will see fit (novels, comics, Star Trek Online and what have you). Everything that happens after nuTrek will happen in a different timeline, in a parallel universe, in another quantum reality, what have you. It's just the same as the mirror universe (only better, I hope) or 'Parallels' or 'Twilight', but pulled through, without a reset button in the end.

Just remember, many of the parallel history/what if episodes within the entire Trek franchise are considered to be fan favourites.

So much so that their avaliable in a DVD boxset.