Renumber The Doctors?

[kirk55555]

While I do think that the War Doctor counts as The Doctor, I personally am not displacing the current numbers for him in how I talk about The Doctor. To me, it goes 8th Doctor, War Doctor, 9th Doctor. All of them are The Doctor, but even though he's been redeemed I still think the War Doctor is different enough to keep his "War Doctor" title and not take a number.

 

[C.E. Evans]

While I do think that the War Doctor counts as The Doctor, I personally am not displacing the current numbers for him in how I talk about The Doctor. To me, it goes 8th Doctor, War Doctor, 9th Doctor. All of them are The Doctor, but even though he's been redeemed I still think the War Doctor is different enough to keep his "War Doctor" title and not take a number.

I believe that's the way it's truly going to go. Sure, there's going to be some fans that will insist on renumbering the Doctors in internet message board discussions...

 

[publiusr]

If I could re-write time..

Smith
Tennant
Eccleston
Davison
McGann
McCoy
The two Bakers
Troughton
Pertwee
Hurt
Hartnell

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

I was thinking today about how this re-numbering shenanigans reminds me of the difficulty people have with changing pronouns around trans people. In situations like those, or when it's unclear what pronouns to use, it's bet to politely ask which they'd prefer used. I think in this instance it would be polite to ask the Doctor how he wishes to consider his incarnations numbered, or perhaps even lettered.

THE DOCTOR (Smith): Just call me Doctor K. My incarnation during the time War is identified as Doctor H.5b.

What?....What!?

It's a TV show. You may think it's polite, however the Doctor is not real. You can't actually ask him how he prefers to be numbered.

Transgender people are real. To compare their issues with some imagined fantasy about a TV show character is absurd.

It's true that I am being silly -- we can't ask the Doctor. And maybe I'll admit that Timelords aren't real. But I do think the parallel stands.

One of the biggest challenges trans-people come across is that many people have trouble accepting that gender-identity and biological sex are two different things. People on the comment sections of news articles about trans people will say things like, " This article should be using the words 'he' and 'him' because that's no woman! He was born a man!"

This 50th anniversary special, and the existanece of the War Doctor, is presenting the fandom with the concept that a Timelord's Identity and their current regeneration are seperate things. But here we are on a message board deciding what the Doctor's identity 'really is', despite what the Doctor has declared. (Which was never really anything more than "I'm the Doctor", except that one brief period.)

And yeah, it's a TV show, but thinking too deeply about things is one of my favorite things to do on a message board.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

If I could re-write time..

Is that an order or a cast for a multi-doctor special?

 

[USS Triumphant]

First, Moffat is a complete TROLL.

But second, maybe "the War Doctor" still counts as 8, if he wasn't the result of a natural regeneration but was more like the 8th Doctor while under the effects of a potion. Or, maybe The Doctor will choose to number himself in the order in which he knows himself AS himself in some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey manner, and since he didn't see the War Doctor as worthy until AFTER he knew his Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith regens, perhaps Hurt counts as the *12th* Doctor - and Capaldi will be 13, even though Smith is 11.

 

[Takeru]

They should have just used Paul McGann instead of John Hurt and this silly discussion wouldn't be necessary.

Moffat annoys me to no end, he pulls another Doctor out of his ass just so that he can address the regeneration limit but at the same time doesn't want to change the numbering so he makes up a completely convoluted story about the war doctor and how je doesn't count except he kinda does but no one except 11 remembers it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

First, Moffat is a complete TROLL.

But second, maybe "the War Doctor" still counts as 8, if he wasn't the result of a natural regeneration but was more like the 8th Doctor while under the effects of a potion. Or, maybe The Doctor will choose to number himself in the order in which he knows himself AS himself in some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey manner, and since he didn't see the War Doctor as worthy until AFTER he knew his Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith regens, perhaps Hurt counts as the *12th* Doctor - and Capaldi will be 13, even though Smith is 11.

Capaldi will actually be the 14th Doctor when it comes to the regeneration count (i.e., after the count) if recent interviews are any indication. Hurt is 9, Eccleston is 10, Tennant is 11, Tennant's Hand is 12, and Smith is 13.

That will help explain why Smith doesn't regenerate when he dies on the Fields of Tranzelore.

 

[kirk55555]

Well, doesn't he have to regenerate? Unless Capaldi is a random Timelord with the same name (which I'm 99% sure Moffat wouldn't be allowed to do even if he wanted to) then he is the regeneration after the 11th Doctor. So Tranzelore, even if it is The Doctor's graveyard, isn't going to be his grave because of whateverwill happen with The 11th Doctor. Its the grave of The Doctor in general, so its probably a lot of regenerations off. Even if the 11th falls there, The Doctor won't permanently die there until a regeneration that we realistically will never see, unless the franchise becomes completely unprofitable and is abandoned forever, which will probably never happen.

 

[Thestral]

That's (speculatively) the whole point - it's the end of the Doctor's natural regeneration limit and we'll be dealing with that as part of it.

They should have just used Paul McGann instead of John Hurt and this silly discussion wouldn't be necessary.

Moffat annoys me to no end, he pulls another Doctor out of his ass just so that he can address the regeneration limit but at the same time doesn't want to change the numbering so he makes up a completely convoluted story about the war doctor and how je doesn't count except he kinda does but no one except 11 remembers it.

I... can't say I give a crap what Moffat's reasoning was. There wasn't really anything convoluted about The Day of the Doctor, and more importantly it (and Hurt) were fantastic.

 

[The Wormhole]

As much as I liked John Hurt as the War Doctor, I got to admit in the end, it was unnecessary beyond the attention grabbing cliffhanger and publicity, although one may argue that's justification enough. And indeed, Day of the Doctor is Britain's number 1 television program for the year, so it obviously worked.

In my review, I commented he War Doctor seemed to have been written originally as Eccleston, although after giving it some thought, if they used McGann they could have had the exact same character arc the War Doctor had in the episode, even including the spontaneous regeneration at the end.

Indeed, throughout the summer I argued that saying "John Hurt guest stars as a mysterious forgotten Doctor" would generate more hype and excitement among non-classic Who fans and the general public than saying "Paul McGann returns as the Eighth Doctor" would have. Although, after seeing the response to McGann's webisode it's hard to deny Who fandom's obvious positive opinion of him. Of course, response to a seven minute mini episode is hardly the appropriate scale to measure a what if for the special.

I will agree that the War Doctor has created an unnecessary confusion regarding the Doctor's numerical designation. Given that by the end of the special the War Doctor is pardoned of his sins and once more considered a true Doctor that should make him the Ninth Doctor and everyone from Eccleston to Capaldi are bumped up a number. Unfortunately, this just won't work since so much of the story arc in Smith's run is contingent on him being the Eleventh Doctor. Moffat has after all been going out of his way throughout his run to make sure we think of Smith as the Eleventh Doctor only to now say "but he's really the Twelfth" right before the pivotal story being built up for the past two years involving "the fall of the Eleventh."

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Well said, Wormhole. I wholeheartedly agree.

I loved Day of the Doctor, but I admit that if McGann had filled the War Doctor position, the story wouldn't have missed a beat, and the whole issue of a Forgotten Doctor wouldn't have arisen at all. In fact, if it had been him, the special would've effectively put the TV Movie into perspective - just as the Eighth Doctor is disregarded by Doctors 9-11 for his actions in the Time War, the TV Movie has been disregarded by many fans as actual Doctor Who, and with this special, the doubt would be removed for good. A little meta, I agree, but with Tom Baker in it, it only seems appropriate.

Plus, the idea of McGann interacting with Tennant and Smith... too lovely to ignore.

That being said, I think the special works anyway. And personally, Eccleston not returning as the Ninth Doctor is the most obvious missing element of it than McGann not playing John Hurt's role - especially since I do think the War Doctor was written for John Hurt or someone of his ilk, and not for Eccleston as others have said (I just don't see it), but still... like the Ninth returning, the Eighth being the scorned Doctor would've added to its appeal immensly. Maybe even more.

 

[DWF]

From what I read about the plot of the Christmas special it'll add a wrinkle or two to the argument over the Doctor's lives.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, doesn't he have to regenerate? Unless Capaldi is a random Timelord with the same name (which I'm 99% sure Moffat wouldn't be allowed to do even if he wanted to) then he is the regeneration after the 11th Doctor. So Tranzelore, even if it is The Doctor's graveyard, isn't going to be his grave because of whateverwill happen with The 11th Doctor. Its the grave of The Doctor in general, so its probably a lot of regenerations off. Even if the 11th falls there, The Doctor won't permanently die there until a regeneration that we realistically will never see, unless the franchise becomes completely unprofitable and is abandoned forever, which will probably never happen.

I wasn't speculating. The "Eleventh Doctor" (i.e., Matt Smith) is the 13th incarnation of the Doctor as far as the regeneration count is concerned (in other words, he has used up all his natural regenerations). Something will need to happen if he is to get any more.

 

[publiusr]

If I could re-write time..

Is that an order or a cast for a multi-doctor special?

No, to make the Doctor get older despite his regens.

 

[The Wormhole]

Eccleston not returning as the Ninth Doctor is the most obvious missing element

Especially considering the Moment is trying to show the War Doctor what he'll become if he goes ahead and obliterates Gallifrey. You'd think the first incarnation to deal with the guilt and torment over how the Time War ended would be a pivotal one for the Moment's presentation. Hell, imagine the scene where the War Doctor asks about how many children were on Gallifrey at the end were Eccleston in it. He still hasn't brought himself to finding out, Tennant knows the number, and Smith has forgotten it.

Yeah, I know, it's pointless to speculate on what could have been, especially considering there likely wasn't very much of a chance of Eccleston returning for this. But one can still imagine anyway.

 

[Venardhi]

11/Smith didn't forget; he simply chooses not to 'actively' remember something that he can't do anything about.

 

[intrinsical]

The problem with McGann returning in place of Hurt is that people could have guessed the plot because there's no way any writer would cast the 8th doctor as a bad guy. John Hurt on the other hand, adds that critical layer of deception since the War Doctor is created specifically to fight in the Time War.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't know about that. The Seventh Doctor went from originally being a clown to somewhat of a master manipulator with even some slightly sinister tendencies. I actually thought long prior before "Day of the Doctor" (even before Moffatt took over), that the Time War may have sent the Eighth Doctor down a dark path--or at least down the path of a warrior--during the conflict. In a way, "Night of the Doctor" was kind of how I thought he'd end up.

 

[The Wormhole]

The problem with McGann returning in place of Hurt is that people could have guessed the plot because there's no way any writer would cast the 8th doctor as a bad guy. John Hurt on the other hand, adds that critical layer of deception since the War Doctor is created specifically to fight in the Time War.

Although, on the other hand, I would have been very surprised if Day of the Doctor didn't end with the War Doctor's redemption.