Renumber The Doctors?

[Lance]

The main problem is that since Moffat took over he's been drilling it into our heads that Smith is the Eleventh Doctor. The premiere episode is titled "The Eleventh Hour." The Doctor refers to himself as "the Eleventh" in The Lodger, which also features him wearing a jersey with 11 on it during the football game. And then there's the whole "Fall of the Eleventh at Trenzalore," which is kind of an integral part of the overall arc of the Smith era. So Moffat has gone out of his way to make sure we think of Smith as the Eleventh Doctor just to reveal that he's actually the Twelfth.

^ It is incredibly strange, isn't it? But on the other hand, Moffat has kind of covered that too: Hurt is a repressed memory. The Smith version of the Doctor has actually convinced himself that he's the eleventh incarnation, and it isn't until the climactic events of Series 7 that he is suddenly reminded, brutally, that there's an entire incarnation that he's been kind of pretending never happened. But it did. 'Day of the Doctor' is really all about the Doctor finally accepting that.

 

[Venardhi]

While Capaldi might be the 13th, it really doesn't make much sense to adjust the last 3 retroactively. If Voyager introduced a secret Enterprise between B and C we wouldn't suddenly start calling the D the E and the E the F, etc. As far as 8, 9 and 10 are concerned he is an aberration that doesn't deserve the name, and 11 only knows the truth after the events of The Day of the Doctor, so just let him be The War Doctor and there simply won't be a 12th Doctor.

 

[Lance]

While Capaldi might be the 13th, it really doesn't make much sense to adjust the last 3 retroactively. If Voyager introduced a secret Enterprise between B and C we wouldn't suddenly start calling the D the E and the E the F, etc.

While it's not exactly the same, NX-01 does pose a very similar problem. How many instances in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY were there where Jon Archer, his crew and the historically important first warp five ship should have been mentioned... but they weren't?

We might make allowances for phrases like 'Fifth starship to bear the name' and all that, but there are so many other occasions where NX-01 should have been a topic of conversation in 24th century Trek, but it wasn't. (Nemesis excepted, of course. )

The reality is: canon changes sometimes. Star Trek canon has grown to accept NX-01 despite a lot of evidence that was (previously) contrary to its existence, and I'd like to think -- I'd like to hope -- that Doctor Who fandom would be big enough to accept Moffat's blatant retcons at face value, and allow their perceptions of the 'canon' to be similarly evolved to accomodate that every Doctor since 2005 needs to be bumped up +1.

I'm not naive enough to believe that will actually happen, though. Fandoms can be a spectacularly finicky lot.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

While Capaldi might be the 13th, it really doesn't make much sense to adjust the last 3 retroactively. If Voyager introduced a secret Enterprise between B and C we wouldn't suddenly start calling the D the E and the E the F, etc. As far as 8, 9 and 10 are concerned he is an aberration that doesn't deserve the name, and 11 only knows the truth after the events of The Day of the Doctor, so just let him be The War Doctor and there simply won't be a 12th Doctor.

That's hardly comparative because each of the Enterprises are different ships while The Doctor is the same physical person with different faces and personalities.

 

[Ethros]

Granted we never see who Hurt regenerates into - we assume Eccleston -

Actually we do see him regenerate into Eccleston.

Anyone else that should have gone on for a second or so longer. I get that Ecclestone wasn't part of it, but on first viewing you couldn't really tell at all he was regenerating into Ecclestone. I had to rewind it a few times to see the *very brief* details. They could have easily added some more in with CGI

 

[M.A.C.O.]

They are perfectly numbered in base-11 with the extra between 8 and 9 instead of after 9.

1 - Hartnell
2 - Troughton
3 - Pertwee
4 - Baker
5 - Davison
6 - Baker
7 - McCoy
8 - McGann
Ɛ - Hurt
9 - Eccleston
10 - Tennant
11 - Smith
12 - Capaldi

I can't wait to see the 1Ɛth Doctor.

Nope, in base 11, that would be:

1 - Hartnell
2 - Troughton
3 - Pertwee
4 - Baker
5 - Davison
6 - Baker
7 - McCoy
8 - McGann
9 - Hurt
a - Eccleston
10 - Tennant
11 - Smith
12 - Capaldi

So Eccleston is the "a" Doctor.

That wouldn't work because Eccleston is officially apart of The Doctor Line. He regenerated from Hurt. Tentoo and The Dream Lord would be off shoot Doctor's.


My list would be of incarnations of the timelord named The Doctor is

1. Hartnell-First
2. Troughton-Second
3. Pertwee-Third
4. T. Baker-Fourth
5. Davison-Fifth
6. C. Baker-Sixth
7. McCoy-Seventh
8. McGann- Eighth
9. Hurt-War
10. Eccleston-Ninth
11. Tennant-Tenth
11.5. Tennant-Tentoo (since there was a regeneration involved and Moffat says it counted)
12. Smith-Eleventh
13a. Jayston-Valeyard (recognized by The Master as The Doctor. An amalgamation of the darkest side of the Doctor created between his twelfth and final incarnation.)
13. Capaldi- Twelth

 

[Count Zero]

To make communication easier I think it's best to refer to the Doctor as played by John Hurt as the War Doctor or by the actor's name and keep the numbering we've been accustomed to for the rest. If we started renumbering, you'd always have to know whether something was written before or after "The Day of the Doctor" in order to avoid confusion.

It's quite possible, though, that Capaldi would think of himself as the 13th Doctor.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Nope, in base 11, that would be:

So Eccleston is the "a" Doctor.

I don't believe in classical post-9 digiting. It's all evil Zygon propaganda. I think it is not true and firmly believe in alternative digits.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Totally agreed. If there are now 13 official Doctors, and like I say that seems to be the thematic thrust of the story, and if it is the intention then I welcome it with open arms.

It doesn't seem to be the intention, no:

"In the script to The Day of the Doctor, Matt’s Doctor was called the Eleventh, and David’s was called the Tenth, so the numbering stays exactly the same – and we call Peter Capaldi the Twelfth Doctor."

Source.

 

[Lance]

^ Hmm, curious. So why isn't that what is (seemingly) presented on screen? If Moffat had no intention of opening this can of worms, why isn't it stated more overtly that this is not the case, when nearly everything on screen seems to say it is so?


My bet is Moffat is covering his ass for contractural reasons. He knows what a shitstorm would brew up if he suddenly declared that everything we previously knew about the series is now null and void. For one thing, there's loads of merchandise that carries specific branding ('The Ninth Doctor', 'The Tenth Doctor', etc) which would be invalidated, no doubt pissing off loads of consumers and marketing types alike. Am I right in thinking the recent Blu Ray boxset, for example, proudly states that it features Doctors 9, 10 and 11?
So he's cooked up this BS explanation for 'official' reasons, which all the same runs contrary to much of what is presented on-screen.

 

[Guy Gardener]

13 is going to call himself "The Last Doctor" just like Hartnel called himself the Definitive Doctor.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

^ Hmm, curious. So why isn't that what is (seemingly) presented on screen? If Moffat had no intention of opening this can of worms, why isn't it stated more overtly that this is not the case, when nearly everything on screen seems to say it is so?


My bet is Moffat is covering his ass for contractural reasons. He knows what a shitstorm would brew up if he suddenly declared that everything we previously knew about the series is now null and void. For one thing, there's loads of merchandise that carries specific branding ('The Ninth Doctor', 'The Tenth Doctor', etc) which would be invalidated, no doubt pissing off loads of consumers and marketing types alike. Am I right in thinking the recent Blu Ray boxset, for example, proudly states that it features Doctors 9, 10 and 11?
So he's cooked up this BS explanation for 'official' reasons, which all the same runs contrary to much of what is presented on-screen.

Or maybe, out of two possible solutions, he picked the simplest and the less confusing?

 

[Lance]

It didn't work. I'm still confused.

 

[BenRoethig]

Granted we never see who Hurt regenerates into - we assume Eccleston -

Actually we do see him regenerate into Eccleston.

For those who can't handle the fact that Hurt IS the 9th Doctor just count Hartnell-McGann in incarnation order, skip Hurt, and use regeneration order (which is one number lower) for Eccleston onward.

Its also heavily implied by the joke about the ears.

 

[davejames]

The eyes are definitely younger, but I'm still having a hard time actually seeing Eccleston in there.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

As a comparison the "in between" regeneration shot from Eccleston to Tennant.

 

[Saul]

Actually thought it was Mcgann again. Leaving it open for him to come back.

 

[Pavonis]

Actually thought it was Mcgann again. Leaving it open for him to come back.

Really? You thought he might un-regenerate? Isn't there enough room for McGann to come back without having the War Doctor unregenerate?

 

[Saul]

Actually thought it was Mcgann again. Leaving it open for him to come back.

Really? You thought he might un-regenerate? Isn't there enough room for McGann to come back without having the War Doctor unregenerate?

Quite right there is. I'm just pointing out that the regeneration looked more like it was going back to Mcgann to me. Didn't look enough like Eccleston. Think it was the hair that made me think Mcgann.

 

[Captain Crow]

Anyone else that should have gone on for a second or so longer. I get that Ecclestone wasn't part of it, but on first viewing you couldn't really tell at all he was regenerating into Ecclestone. I had to rewind it a few times to see the *very brief* details. They could have easily added some more in with CGI

It's a safe bet that they didn't linger on that shot for very long because they were trying to hide the fact they morphing Hurt with a publicity photo of Eccelston that didn't quite line up (mainly the nose and mouth) properly.
I'm guessing it was either this one

or a very similar one from the same photo shoot.



Fun fact: Eccelston is currently the only actor to not film either the transition into or out of his Doctor. Hurt to Eccleston uses a publicity photo and Eccleston to Tennant is actually just Tennant.