Religious/Atheist parenting problem + UU church questions

[Kelso]

I'm in a bit of a disagreement with my soon-to-be-ex wife about the religious upbringing of our 3 year old daughter. My wife and her mother (who my wife and daughter are living with now) have suddenly decided to start attending church again and they want to take my daughter with them. This irritates me for several reasons. As an atheist who was raised in church and spent several years as a religious nut studying to be a preacher, I don't think that a Christian indoctrination is good for my daughter. But more importantly, the weekend is daddy/daughter time. It's really the only uninterrupted time I have with my little girl. So, like I said, I'm pretty irritated about the whole thing.

But rather than be a tyrant and refuse to let her go, it occurred to me that I could potentially solve both problems by finding a church-type Sunday morning assembly that is more in line with my beliefs and work out an alternating Sunday compromise.

Now, there is a pretty cool looking atheist assembly that meets on Sunday in the Atlanta area, but it is farther from my house than I want to drive, so that's out. I've heard that Unitarian Universalists are a creed-free group who are open to atheists and offer children a wider religious education experience... which sounds like the sort of thing I am looking for.

So, my questions are... (1) any atheists around who have had a similar dilemma? (2) Any UUs around who could tell me a little more about their church (esp. the children's programs)? (3) Any other church or group recommendations that may be what I'm looking for?

 

[Miss Chicken]

I don't know about UU groups but some Quaker groups are very accepting of atheists. Generally speaking those that hold unprogrammed Meetings - i.e. they are Quakers that have silent meetings, and do not have pastors - are the most accepting.

This is because they have a belief in the Inner Light. Christian Quakers believe that the Inner Light is the Christ Within but non-Christian Quakers will say that the Inner Light is the goodness that is inate in all men. The Quakers (especially the unprogrammed) are dogma free.

Quakers are generally very liberal. Some Unprogrammed Quakers were one of the earliest people to accept gay members and have gay committal ceremonies. They are a peace church that believes that they have a social responsible to the world.

The can use the Quaker Finder at this site to see if there is an unorogrammed meeting near you.

 

[Bloodwhiner]

Rather than attend any one church or creed, which is a form of indoctrination why not take your child to a different church or creed every week or two. That will expose her to a wide variety of beliefs that will benefit her understanding of the world later. I would suggest branching past just Christian congregations as well. Take her to a synagogue or a shrine. Perhaps even have her research the history, beliefs and traditions of some religions in advance. I would suggest calling those you are unfamiliar with in advance and explaining what you are doing. Ask for their advice on how to proceed. This is extremely true of world religions such as Buddhism or Islam.

This approach makes the time a learning experience rather than a religious indoctrination. You should also realize that by not taking her to any church is also a form of indoctrination.

Someone who never exposes a child to religion of churches using the excuse "I want them to make up their own mind" is copping out. A child who never attends church is highly unlikely to start attending spontaneously when they grow up.

 

[Mark de Vries]

How is attending a church service indoctrination and an atheist meeting not?

Both try to teach their values, or lack thereof, to the attendees.

I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, but I'm just curious.

 

[Roger Wilco]

I suggest you do deliberately indoctrinate the child and tell teach her to disregard superstition of any kind, especially the lies her mother is inflicting upon her.

 

[Amaris]

How is attending a church service indoctrination and an atheist meeting not?

Both try to teach their values, or lack thereof, to the attendees.

I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, but I'm just curious.

I think the whole idea is that he's wanting his daughter to be open to different ideas, instead of cementing one VERY heavy handed and VERY exclusive doctrine in taking hold, because while I have lots of respect for most Christians, the Christian faith leaves a residue with you even when you leave it, because the teachings play on the worst fears of mankind, and make the solution look so incredibly simple on the surface, that you don't forget them even if you don't put any stock in them.

 

[Scout101]

How is attending a church service indoctrination and an atheist meeting not?

Both try to teach their values, or lack thereof, to the attendees.

How does not being religious equate to lacking values?

 

[LaxScrutiny]

How is attending a church service indoctrination and an atheist meeting not?

Both try to teach their values, or lack thereof, to the attendees.

I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, but I'm just curious.

Unless something new has come along recently, there is no such "creed" as Atheism. I realize that Christians like to say there is, when they get defensive. But there is no "Atheist Bible", there is no one set of "Atheist Beliefs", there are no "Atheist Churches" or "Atheist Sunday Schools". The exception is Jainism, which you won't find much of outside India, and Kelso doesn't seem to be interested in.

Atheism is not antitheism. Being a-theist, semanticly, is like being a-symetrical or a-tonal. It doesn't mean a rigid structured system that is diametricly opposed. It means one simply does not subscribe to theism. It is not a "belief system" to not believe, and by it very nature does not require indoctrination. Saying it is a "belief system" is like saying someone who doesn't belong to any political party is a member of a party, they just don't want to admit it. It's convoluted, and it the sort of "reasoning" that inspires people to avoid religious indoctrination.

I'm in a bit of a disagreement with my soon-to-be-ex wife about the religious upbringing of our 3 year old daughter...

As I mentioned in one your other posts, I'm in a different jusrisdiction, so check to see if the law is the same or similar where you are. You are recently separated. Usually the default situation at separation is legal joint guardianship. In order to have sole custody or guardianship, a parent has to seek it in court or a written separation agreement.

Just because you have split up with you wife, you haven't stopped being your daughter's parent. You still have a legal say in her medical treatment, schooling and religious upbringing. These issues in particular are often contentious, and so there are always many many court precedents in any jurisdiction, and family law legislation in your state will spell it out specificly.

If you have a concern, they should desist, period. You should have a veto, just like you should have a veto if your wife wants to get your daughter a sex change operation. An extreme example, but it is the same law.

 

[Amaris]

How is attending a church service indoctrination and an atheist meeting not?

Both try to teach their values, or lack thereof, to the attendees.

I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, but I'm just curious.

Unless something new has come along recently, there is no such "creed" as Atheism. I realize that Christians like to say there is, when they get defensive. But there is no "Atheist Bible", there is no one set of "Atheist Beliefs", there are no "Atheist Churches" or "Atheist Sunday Schools". The exception is Jainism, which you won't find much of outside India, and Kelso doesn't seem to be interested in.

Being a-theist, like being a-symetrical, a-tonal, doesn't mean a rigid structured system that is diametricly opposed. It means one simply does not subscribe to theism. It is not a "belief system" to not believe, and by it very nature does not require indoctrination. Saying it is a "belief system" is like saying someone who doesn't belong to any political party is a member of a party, they just don't want to admit it. It's convoluted, and it the sort of "reasoning" that inspires people to avoid religious indoctrination.

I've been working on an atheist Bible, but I keep getting Writer's Block.

 

[Pingfah]

I suggest you do deliberately indoctrinate the child and tell teach her to disregard superstition of any kind, especially the lies her mother is inflicting upon her.

I somewhat agree, although I don't personally consider Atheism a doctrine, to me it would simply be deprogramming.

Although I think actually that the OPs idea of exposing the child to LOTS of different religions, including the idea that one can function without a belief system at all, is probably a better idea than just taking her to an Atheist meeting which will simply lead to confrontation between the parents.

If the child is educated in many different belief systems hopefully they will see that there is no good or logical reason to favour one over the other, and therefore no good reason to subscribe to ANY of them.

 

[CmdrAJD]

Kelso, I recently found myself in a somewhat similar boat. After years of not professing any sort of spirituality, my wife was prompted by a series of health crises to feel like this was an area that she needed to explore. Her best friend is Mormon, so she went with her a couple of times to their church and took our kids along. I'm atheist myself and was not pleased by this.

I hoped the phase would pass, but it didn't. My wife, while she didn't like many things about the Mormon faith, still wanted something. She also did not want to go alone. I went to a UU church for a couple of years as a child, so I suggested that as a kind of compromise.

Here's the deal with UU's: it is not a Christian faith. There are people there who probably believe in Jesus, but you can also find Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and even a few atheists who either like being part of some kind of community or who are in my situation. Since there's no real dogma, each church kind of does its own thing. There are seven basic UU principles, though.

Stolen from a UU website:
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

As for the sunday school part of it, generally it's a lot of being a good person stuff based on the principles (without the supernatural threat behind it) and also, when the kids get a little older, a bit of a world religions survey. One text I saw included a fairly critical look at each of the major world religions (including mentioning that the gospels were written well after the events they describe) and included Humanism.

If you're trying to avoid indoctrination but feel you have to take your child to a church, UU is not a bad way to go. Again, I went as a kid and ended up completely secular.

Now for the paranoid part. I don't know how the courts in Georgia are, but there have been instances in divorces where a parent's lack of spiritual beliefs has been used against them in custody cases. It seems to be happening less now, but, since you mentioned that your wife is soon to be your ex-wife and this church thing is a new development, hopefully they aren't planning to argue that you should have limited time with your kid because you're an atheist.

 

[KiraDax]

I suppose it I were to be honest with myself I'd have to take the label of agnostic borderline atheist, and I haven't set foot inside a church since I was around twelve years old, but I honestly do not see the harm...greater harm, at least...in exposing a child to a religious forum. In fact, I'd encourage exposing your daughter to as many religions and types of worship as possible. Belief or disbelief is a very personal decision that one should come to on their own terms, without pressure either way from anyone else, especially a respected authority figure.

Explain to your ex that you don't mind the kiddo going, as long as she's not bullied into acknowledging any particular belief. Meanwhile, on your time, find non-religious forums to expose her to...again, without the 'and this is the truth' bullying included. Explain to the kiddo that neither you or mommy can tell her what she should or shouldn't believe, that's in her heart to find.

And of course, try to work out visitation so you don't lose bonding time over her mother's religious events.

 

[John Picard]

This is a phase your ex and her mother are going through. I wouldn't worry about it. My ex-wife, who could never be bothered to attend church back when I was still somewhat a believer suddenly got involved with a church after our divorce. That lasted all of a couple of months, which is par for the course with her.

Intelligently discuss everything with your daughter, and never forget that children are much more intelligent than adults give them credit. Don't play games and be honest. She'll always remember that about you.

 

[T'Baio]

Are there no Humanist gatherings in your area?

 

[Deckerd]

I like the idea of taking her to different gatherings. The Society of Friends are very welcoming and the least proselytising of any christian organisation, if you can't find anything else.

 

[Kelso]

Rather than attend any one church or creed, which is a form of indoctrination why not take your child to a different church or creed every week or two. That will expose her to a wide variety of beliefs that will benefit her understanding of the world later. I would suggest branching past just Christian congregations as well. Take her to a synagogue or a shrine. Perhaps even have her research the history, beliefs and traditions of some religions in advance. I would suggest calling those you are unfamiliar with in advance and explaining what you are doing. Ask for their advice on how to proceed. This is extremely true of world religions such as Buddhism or Islam.

It's a good idea, but I'd really like for her to comfortable wherever we go and hopefully have a group of friends there... as she likely will at her mother's church. I'll keep this in mind for when she's a bit older though.

How is attending a church service indoctrination and an atheist meeting not?

Both try to teach their values, or lack thereof, to the attendees.

I don't mean to attack you personally or anything, but I'm just curious.

I think the whole idea is that he's wanting his daughter to be open to different ideas, instead of cementing one VERY heavy handed and VERY exclusive doctrine in taking hold, because while I have lots of respect for most Christians, the Christian faith leaves a residue with you even when you leave it, because the teachings play on the worst fears of mankind, and make the solution look so incredibly simple on the surface, that you don't forget them even if you don't put any stock in them.

Yeah, Axiom knows where I am coming from. As a child I was taught that the bible was literal truth and that morality was very rigidly defined (among other things). Atheists tend not to teach their beliefs like that (in my experience, anyway). If there was an atheist 'creed' (which there isn't) it would be "think for yourself and make your own decision". At any rate, I do like the idea of exposing her to religions, I just don't want her world view to be limited by one in particular.

I suggest you do deliberately indoctrinate the child and tell teach her to disregard superstition of any kind, especially the lies her mother is inflicting upon her.

Heh. I plan to teach her what I believe in, and let her decide what she believes in. My biggest concern is that her mother and grandmother are going to be a much larger influence on her than I am, esp. if they're taking her every week to a place where everyone she meets agrees with them.

You should have a veto

Yeah, I know. And I could forbid it if I wanted to, but I'm trying to find a compromise that will make everyone happy. I really don't want my daughter to grow up with her parents fighting over her, and I think this could be a good opportunity to set a precedent for future disagreements. Also, I don't really want to forbid her from going to church. That really doesn't seem fair. And, really, I'm sure she'll have a blast going to church and playing with the Sunday school kids, doing crafts and so forth. I just don't care for the the things she will be taught.

If the child is educated in many different belief systems hopefully they will see that there is no good or logical reason to favour one over the other, and therefore no good reason to ascribe to ANY of them.

Hopefully. Whatever she decides to believe in the future, I want her to have more options than I had.

Here's the deal with UU's: it is not a Christian faith. There are people there who probably believe in Jesus, but you can also find Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and even a few atheists who either like being part of some kind of community or who are in my situation. Since there's no real dogma, each church kind of does its own thing. There are seven basic UU principles, though.

Stolen from a UU website:
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

As for the sunday school part of it, generally it's a lot of being a good person stuff based on the principles (without the supernatural threat behind it) and also, when the kids get a little older, a bit of a world religions survey. One text I saw included a fairly critical look at each of the major world religions (including mentioning that the gospels were written well after the events they describe) and included Humanism.

If you're trying to avoid indoctrination but feel you have to take your child to a church, UU is not a bad way to go. Again, I went as a kid and ended up completely secular.

All of that sounds pretty good to me. I'll probably go check out the local UU church on a Sunday when my daughter is at church with her mom so I can feel it out and make sure I'm comfortable with it before I take her.

Now for the paranoid part. I don't know how the courts in Georgia are, but there have been instances in divorces where a parent's lack of spiritual beliefs has been used against them in custody cases. It seems to be happening less now, but, since you mentioned that your wife is soon to be your ex-wife and this church thing is a new development, hopefully they aren't planning to argue that you should have limited time with your kid because you're an atheist.

I'm not worried about that. My wife hasn't been an angel and I have the pics to prove it. She knows better than to play that card.

 

[Kelso]

This is a phase your ex and her mother are going through. I wouldn't worry about it. My ex-wife, who could never be bothered to attend church back when I was still somewhat a believer suddenly got involved with a church after our divorce. That lasted all of a couple of months, which is par for the course with her.

I hope that's the case, I guess we'll see.

Intelligently discuss everything with your daughter, and never forget that children are much more intelligent than adults give them credit. Don't play games and be honest. She'll always remember that about you.

That's the plan.

Are there no Humanist gatherings in your area?

Yeah, there is a Humanist group and a Freethought society. But (1) who can be bothered to drive all the way to freakin' Atlanta on a Sunday morning? and (2) I don't see anything on their website about a children's group.

I like the idea of taking her to different gatherings. The Society of Friends are very welcoming and the least proselytising of any christian organisation, if you can't find anything else.

I'll look into that.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I am going to make a surprising proposition here, considering that I am a most-reviled atheist around here.

I will say that first off I'm against the idea of indoctrination. I think it's shameful that people instill these religious claims before they have the ability to think and comprehend. It's already true to an indoctrinated child, regardless.

However, I would say take her to church, whatever church. It's important for her to understand a bit about the religion that is a huge part of our culture. It's important not to cause a rift in the family. I also think there is a slightly important aspect of having a child look to soemthing more than the parents alone to figure out if they are doing right and wrong. I personally believe that religion is not the best way to teach this, but, hey.

My point is this, if you are a good parent, and I suspect you are, taking her to church will not indoctrinate her, becuase you will assure that, gradually, over time, she will learn a lot more, and have a better perspective than religion alone.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I am a member of a UU Church in Fort Worth, TX, and I was raised Jewish. The UU history is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs with a little Buddhism thrown in, but as a previous poster mentioned, the Seven Principles is what UU live by.

It is a liberal congregation.

The children in our Church learn comparative religion in their Sunday School classes, and this encompasses all religions, not just Western ones.

UU is more a spiritual and intellectual place of worship than a religious one.

from someone who lost their faith, UU is a wonderful place to find it again.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Yeah, I know. And I could forbid it if I wanted to, but I'm trying to find a compromise that will make everyone happy. I really don't want my daughter to grow up with her parents fighting over her, and I think this could be a good opportunity to set a precedent for future disagreements. Also, I don't really want to forbid her from going to church. That really doesn't seem fair. And, really, I'm sure she'll have a blast going to church and playing with the Sunday school kids, doing crafts and so forth. I just don't care for the the things she will be taught.

Saying "veto" probably came across stronger than I meant. But your STBX needs to understand that you (both) have a veto, and has to behave reasonably.

A compromise only exists if both parties move halfway. I've been trying to get a legal agreement and get divorced for almost 3 years now, and if I've learned anything, I've learned that if you just keep bending and giving in and bending and giving in, trying to get a "compromise", your ex is fully aware that all they have to do is keep stalling, denying, fussing, refusing, etc, and in the end they get to just do what they want.

You have a right to set your boundaries. It's also your responsibility. Your daughter will thrive best in this situation with 2 involved parents who care about her, that means her life has to reflect both of you. Not just her mum.