Reliant's weaponry in STII:TWOK

[SicOne]

I'd have to rewatch the movie to be sure, but I thought I saw in TSFS an Enterprise bridge graphic that showed partial shielding at the point where Chekov said the shields were not responding, which if correct would suggest that it was a full-yield torpedo hit that struck partially-raised shields that let some damage through, sufficient to cripple Enterprise.

Of interest is that Enterprise's port torpedo tube had been destroyed in TWOK by Khan's megaphasers during the Mutara Nebula battle, so apparently Constitution-refits can fire two torpedos from each tube a half-second apart. Hitherto now, I thought it was only one torpedo at a time per tube, with a lengthy reload time (as shown in TWOK as Enterprise prepares for the final battle).

Regarding the megaphasers of Reliant, I tend to think that while the Constitution-refits and newbuild Constitutions are more exploratory ships than frontline combat vessels, while the Mirandas (Reliant's purpose of working with Project Genesis not withstanding) are designed more for frontline combat. This also helps to explain why Mirandas are seen in the TNG/DS9 era, especially during the Dominion War, though whether they're present as continuously long-serving starships or recently recommissioned from storage and supply depots for the DW is questioned.

 

[Timo]

I thought I saw in TSFS an Enterprise bridge graphic that showed partial shielding at the point where Chekov said the shields were not responding

This I guess depends on how literally one interprets the shield display. In ST2, it's unlikely that the Reliant would really be shielded by something that wraps and unwraps the shield in two dimensions counterclockwise; in ST3, then, the presence of a few stray dots in a very similar display need not tell us much about which parts of the ship are shielded. Instead, nine green dots out of a fifty'ish total may indicate 20% shielding, or then simply that the lights for the rest of the dots are broken.

apparently Constitution-refits can fire two torpedos from each tube a half-second apart

This seems to be the case in the big fight in ST6, too - a volley of four, two per tube, gives much the same rate of fire.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

What makes them "megaphasers"? They don't do any more damage to the Enterprise than the latter's phasers do to Reliant.

 

[Timo]

There's some logic to thinking they are bigger guns than the hull-mounted ones. There are so many confusing factors relating to firepower and destructive effect in the movie (battle damage, intent to wound only, varying states of shielding) that those could be ignored and the phasers themselves be used as the basis of the argument.

1) They look different
2) They look bigger
3) Khan uses them exclusively

Now, the first two points are a misunderstanding: the beams emerge from dimples no different from the saucer ones in size and shape. But the third point carries some weight even without them. If Khan has different types of phaser to choose from, it's likely that he would choose the more powerful ones, not the less powerful ones - hence, "megaphasers". It's just that without the first two points, we can't really say these phasers are different in any fashion, so Khan's choice might be for completely unrelated reasons.

Firepower might be considered as well, as the interesting here is that Khan's phasers are the first ever in Star Trek to cut holes in the outer hull of a starship. When Kirk responds, his cuts are shallow in comparison. But Kirk was firing with battery power, Khan was supposedly using warp power; that in mind, Kirk's phasers seem far superior in comparison.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

The damage to each ship looks about the same. There's no "depth" to either, really. And let's not forget what Enterprise's phasers do to Reliant's nacelle.

 

[Ithekro]

I think is was that Reliant was doing about the same damage to Enterprise with one beam compared to Enterprise's two beams.

It was probably a fan term to figure out why they were used and the hull phasers were not, when they could hit Enterprise just as easily.

In TNG days, we don't see Miranda's use those, they use the hull mounted phasers that use the TNG solid phaser effects.

 

[Timo]

And let's not forget what Enterprise's phasers do to Reliant's nacelle.

...Remarkably, again after losing main power. Although perhaps nacelles are more vulnerable targets, and the first fight had both captains avoid hitting those because the risk for mutual immolation would have been too great.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Richard Baker]

I think they kept the Miranda's weapons looking TNGish so they could make the Defiant's easier to spot in the Dominion War battles.

I don't recall off hand seeing a Miranda class ship firing in TNG series

 

[Ithekro]

Only in DS9 do we see them firing.

 

[Timo]

And it's never from the rollbar phasers IIRC.

A Miranda is one of the few non-Defiant ships seen firing a torpedo in the Dominion War, an aft shot against the Breen in the finale. The saucer phasers fire in the near-iconic shot (used twice!) of two Mirandas dying spectacularly. A surprise phaser fires from the lower dome in "Emissary". And that's about it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

I know it's grossly inaccurate, but IIRC, the DS9TM says that Mirandas are fitted with two pulse phaser cannon; the only ship, apart from the Defiant, said to have those weapons. I always assumed that was a nod to the eighties "megaphaser" idea. I don't have the book to hand, so it's possible that I'm misremembering.

 

[Timo]

That's what the book says, in addition to attributing six Type 7 phaser emitters and two photon torpedo launchers to the Miranda. Those latter stats might be surprisingly reasonable as such: six double banks are of course highly visible on the saucer, and two launchers instead of four is what we see on several DS9 Mirandas that have lost their aft tubes to secondary impulse engines of some sort!

The book seems to treat phaser type as "caliber" rather than "degree of modernity", which is consistent with how handheld phaser type numbers are treated in canon. Also, Type 8 is what the ST:GEN Okudagram credited the E-B with, so Type 7 might be okay for Constitution-sized ships. (The book has no weapons data on Excelsior class, but all the modern heavies get Type 10, all the Excelsior kitbashes get Type 9, and tellingly the Constitution kitbash gets Type 10 rather than Type 7 and the Intrepid kitbash gets Type 8, indicating Type isn't the same as Design Age. Or then it merely indicates that nobody put any thought into this material, but that's defeatism. )

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Perhaps not so much didn't put any thought to it as everyone's doing their own thing without consultation amongst them. They all know the 'types' but they all have their own idea about what 'type' means, and haven't met and discussed them like reasonable people.

 

[Smellmet]

I tend to think that while the Constitution-refits and newbuild Constitutions are more exploratory ships than frontline combat vessels, while the Mirandas (Reliant's purpose of working with Project Genesis not withstanding) are designed more for frontline combat. This also helps to explain why Mirandas are seen in the TNG/DS9 era, especially during the Dominion War, though whether they're present as continuously long-serving starships or recently recommissioned from storage and supply depots for the DW is questioned.

I've always seen the Reliant as a 'destroyer' to the Enterprise's 'battlecruiser' which backs up your theory.

 

[SicOne]

And let's not forget what Enterprise's phasers do to Reliant's nacelle.

...Remarkably, again after losing main power. Although perhaps nacelles are more vulnerable targets, and the first fight had both captains avoid hitting those because the risk for mutual immolation would have been too great.

Timo Saloniemi

I am also thinking that (1) Kirk's dive-dive-dive and subsequent surfacing maneuver was performed on RCS thrusters and thus conserved power normally channeled to drive function of the impulse engines and shunted it to phasers, allowing Enterprise to deliver a more powerful phaser strike than if she had been maneuvering on impulse, and (2) Kirk intentionally targeted Reliant's nacelle, crippling her so that no matter how the rest of the battle played out, she wouldn't be able to warp after clearing the nebula and thus threaten Federation worlds with the Genesis device. The photon torpedo that blew the wrecked nacelle off of Reliant was an insurance shot, in much the same manner that military-trained snipers take down a target with a center-mass shot, then deliver a headshot to the downed target, just to be sure.

 

[SicOne]

Regarding the Miranda, have we ascertained if the torpedo magazines are in the hull and elevatored up the rollbar as needed, or are the torpedo magazines contained within the rollbar itself? I'm a fan of the latter idea, although it does admittedly make the ship more vulnerable to an attack that strikes the rollbar and then causes a cascade reaction through the rest of the rollbar that devastates the top half of the ship. But I also imagine there are ejection mechanisms that allow the ship to kick off the rollbar in case of such an emergency.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering that Enterprise hit the Reliant's torpedo bay with a torpedo and the whole ship didn't go up, would suggest that such a hit either does not impact the stored torpedos, or that the destruction of the torpedoes in the magazine is not a super critial hit of any sort. The antimatter may not be in the torpedo until firing, for instance. Or the impact causes a sort of low yield explosion as the antimatter doesn't all go off at once?

 

[Tomalak]

Regarding the Miranda, have we ascertained if the torpedo magazines are in the hull and elevatored up the rollbar as needed, or are the torpedo magazines contained within the rollbar itself? I'm a fan of the latter idea, although it does admittedly make the ship more vulnerable to an attack that strikes the rollbar and then causes a cascade reaction through the rest of the rollbar that devastates the top half of the ship. But I also imagine there are ejection mechanisms that allow the ship to kick off the rollbar in case of such an emergency.

Wouldn't the whole point of mounting them all in the big pod be to centralise the operation, and keep it away from everything else? Of course the torpedoes would be kept in the pod, and if there were some disaster, it's better to have all the ordnance contained in an easily-jettisoned pod.

It makes more sense than having the torpedo launcher right in the middle of the most vulnerable part of the ship, just above the main warp reactor, and very close to the navigational deflector dish! On the other hand, I don't think we've ever seen a Starship destroyed because their torpedo magazine exploded. Presumably torpedoes are more or less inert before they are armed and fired. They aren't exactly going down like the HMS Hood in Star Trek.

On a related note, I always assumed Reliant's torpedo pod was automated, because there doesn't look like room for a turbolift in the pylon it's mounted on. I daresay there is access for maintenance, but only by Jefferies tubes.

 

[SicOne]

^ It's the same turbolift system used in the Oberth's pylons. Small car, laying on its side.

 

[SicOne]

Or it's manned by a species eight inches tall. Kind of like the folks who live in the roof of my garage and open and close the garage door, or the guys who work inside ATMs and RedBox machines. Like that.