Relationship between the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar

[DS9 Gal AZ]

From what I can tell watching DS9, the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar pretty much hated each other. The only reason they managed to work together was because the Founders said they had to. The Vorta seemed to see the Jem'Hadar under their command as nothing more than cannon fodder, and the Jem'Hadar only obeyed the Vorta because it was "the order of things," and they controlled the White supply. The Founders seem to have engineered or conditioned their servant races to regard each other with mutual distrust or dislike.

Now on some level, it seems counterintuitive to have them hate each other, but on closer examination, it plays right into the Founder's paranoia regarding "Solids." What if the Jems and the Vorta could come to respect, trust, and even like each other? What's to stop the two races from banding together and rebelling against the Founders? One Jem'Hadar confessed that he had never even seen a Founder. If the Jems were well-treated by the Vorta, who had control of everything, might they not even go so far as to start seeing the Vorta as "gods," and not the near-mythical, invisible Founders? Might the Vorta, who are cloned and have no offspring or families of their own, begin to regard their brave Jem'Hadar soldiers with affection, perhaps even growing to consider them their "children?" So the Founders had to make sure that didn't happen by having the two races barely tolerate each other.

I just thought this might be interesting topic for discussion. It also makes me wonder if perhaps there aren't some Vorta/Jems in the entirety of the Dominion that do manage to respect and trust each other. I mean, from what we saw on our screens there was certainly no love lost between them (Weyoun 4 was killed by his First, Keevan sent his Jem'Hadar to their deaths), but maybe that wasn't always the case ...

 

[Deranged Nasat]

From what I can tell watching DS9, the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar pretty much hated each other. The only reason they managed to work together was because the Founders said they had to. The Vorta seemed to see the Jem'Hadar under their command as nothing more than cannon fodder, and the Jem'Hadar only obeyed the Vorta because it was "the order of things," and they controlled the White supply. The Founders seem to have engineered or conditioned their servant races to regard each other with mutual distrust or dislike.

Now on some level, it seems counterintuitive to have them hate each other, but on closer examination, it plays right into the Founder's paranoia regarding "Solids." What if the Jems and the Vorta could come to respect, trust, and even like each other? What's to stop the two races from banding together and rebelling against the Founders? One Jem'Hadar confessed that he had never even seen a Founder. If the Jems were well-treated by the Vorta, who had control of everything, might they not even go so far as to start seeing the Vorta as "gods," and not the near-mythical, invisible Founders? Might the Vorta, who are cloned and have no offspring or families of their own, begin to regard their brave Jem'Hadar soldiers with affection, perhaps even growing to consider them their "children?" So the Founders had to make sure that didn't happen by having the two races barely tolerate each other.

That's a very interesting analysis, and it makes perfect sense to me. The Founders are hands-off rulers, isolationists; they don't like getting involved in day-to-day affairs within the Dominion. If they made the working relationship between the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar a pleasant one, it would therefore make perfect sense for the Founders to wind up "shunted out" of their own empire, particularly if the relationship developed as you outlined above. By ensuring that all that keeps the Jem'Hadar and Vorta together is "the order of things" (an order defined in terms mandated by the Founders and which is important to the two solid races precisely because the Founders encoded in into them genetically), the Founders also ensure that both races have only one true trunk of relational awareness - to the Founders. Allowing Vorta and Jem'Hadar to build a sense of true relational awareness towards one another would be competition. More than the simple desire to maintain their monopoly on power, the very idea of solids relating to one another in a context external to the Founder's order is terrifying to the Link. It goes beyond politics and into the psychological problems underlying their politics. As far as they're concerned, "solids working together independent of us" always equals "solids working together against us". Allow solids to conspire among themselves and they'll inevitably come to the Link and attack us, for such is the nature of Solids. They hate us on general principles.

So I think you're right- it makes perfect sense for the Founders to ensure not only that solids are under their control and order, but also that they be prevented from forming any true appreciation for one another, particularly those races in the higher tier of Dominion administration. So the Vorta and Jem'Hadar must relate to the Founders and to the overall order, but not to one another- the potential for a meaningful relationship between them is cut out, only existing within the framework of order. I suppose the Dominion economy works the same way - this planet has lots of food but poor metal deposits, this planet has much metal but little food. Trade is to be encouraged, but not because the two planets are good friends and appreciative allies. No, all that is permitted in defining their relationship is order. The Dominion dictates the amount to be traded and when. The whole business is removed from anything which could defy Founder control- and friendship, appreciation, any of these aspects of a relationship are by definition beyond Founder control.

I imagine that while the Dominion is an expansive trading alliance, each race within it is also very much alone, in a manner very alien to Federation worlds, where the economic ties are reinforced with something (or many things) "deeper".

 

[Temis the Vorta]

What if the Jems and the Vorta could come to respect, trust, and even like each other? What's to stop the two races from banding together and rebelling against the Founders?

Exactamundo. Starting from the basis that the Founders had chosen to rule via religious zealotry and fear, they created a power structure that was optimally designed to work as well as any society based on fear could be expected to function.

They could have co-opted Dominion races such as the Dosi into their power structure, but instead chose to create races from scratch (or heavily adapt existing races, which since have apparently gone extinct in their natural form?) so as to have total control over them.

They could have used a single race for their entire military structure, but instead deliberately designed two different races, both of which were vital to the overall system, and ensured that they would never band together against their overlords. If either the Vorta or the Jems went off the reservation as a group, the military structure would fall apart, which is better than the possibility of being used against the Founders. Also, another empire would be unable to co-opt the Dominion military against the Founders, for instance by creating their own version of the k-white and luring the Jems away with it.

Although this wasn't very fully explored, I also got the sense that Vorta didn't like other Vorta a whole hell of a lot. That would be another safeguard, preventing the Vorta from ever rebelling as a group. The whole Dominion structure is "functional dysfunction." It just screams PARANOIA!

It also makes me wonder if perhaps there aren't some Vorta/Jems in the entirety of the Dominion that do manage to respect and trust each other. I mean, from what we saw on our screens there was certainly no love lost between them (Weyoun 4 was killed by his First, Keevan sent his Jem'Hadar to their deaths), but maybe that wasn't always the case ...

There probably are, by accident. The Founders seem to have particularly bad quality control issues with Vorta. Weyoun 6 was defective in having a conscience; Keevan was almost certainly defective in having too much concern for his own survival vs what was good for the Founders. Weyoun 4 didn't show very good judgment; a good Vorta should be able to avoid being fragged by the troops. (However, "early" models in a Vorta line may be more error-prone, and they learn through dying and resurrection.)

The Vorta are probably very tricky to get right. They have to have a survival instinct, but not too much of a survival instinct. They have to revere the Founders but not care about anyone else, including members of their own species. They have to be intelligent, perceptive and have the ability to see a situation from someone else's perspective (essential for any kind of strategic ability), yet lack a conscience or any feeling of empathy. They have to have enough free will and imagination that they can be adaptable and creative in their strategies, yet rigid enough that they will never question the Founders' divinity. With that laundry list of characteristics, I figure the Vorta are all defective, to one degree or another.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The whole Dominion structure is "functional dysfunction."

That seems to me a great summary.

The Vorta are probably very tricky to get right. They have to have a survival instinct, but not too much of a survival instinct. They have to revere the Founders but not care about anyone else, including members of their own species. They have to be intelligent, perceptive and have the ability to see a situation from someone else's perspective (essential for any kind of strategic ability), yet lack a conscience or any feeling of empathy. They have to have enough free will and imagination that they can be adaptable and creative in their strategies, yet rigid enough that they will never question the Founders' divinity. With that laundry list of characteristics, I figure the Vorta are all defective, to one degree or another.

I really like this part of your post, in particular. But then, you of all people would of course have great insight into the Vorta, wouldn't you?

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

The Vorta are probably very tricky to get right. They have to have a survival instinct, but not too much of a survival instinct. They have to revere the Founders but not care about anyone else, including members of their own species. They have to be intelligent, perceptive and have the ability to see a situation from someone else's perspective (essential for any kind of strategic ability), yet lack a conscience or any feeling of empathy. They have to have enough free will and imagination that they can be adaptable and creative in their strategies, yet rigid enough that they will never question the Founders' divinity. With that laundry list of characteristics, I figure the Vorta are all defective, to one degree or another.

And they have to be 'friendly' or 'pleasant' enough for other races in a diplomatic setting not to hate them. What I find most amusing about Weyoun is his 'sure, I'm evil and I've indirectly killed thousands of people, but that doesn't matter! I'm still a nice guy!' attitude.
So yes, they're complicated, perhaps even more so than a 'natural' being since every part of them is designed or at least adapted from an older species.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Although this wasn't very fully explored, I also got the sense that Vorta didn't like other Vorta a whole hell of a lot. That would be another safeguard, preventing the Vorta from ever rebelling as a group. The whole Dominion structure is "functional dysfunction." It just screams PARANOIA!

Another interesting point. I find it very telling that we never see two Vorta interact on-screen (I'm not counting Weyoun 6 and Weyoun 7 interacting via viewscreen, that's kind of like talking to yourself, heh). They are surrounded by either Jem'Hadar, other aliens, or both, but never members of their own race. It's almost as if the Founders are deliberately isolating their Vorta from each other so they don't form any kind of attachments. I'm trying to remember if any Vorta even ever spoke of another Vorta with anything approaching fondness or familiarity ... aaand I'm drawing a blank. Those poor lonely, ruthless, deceitful, manipulative Vorta!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's almost as if the Founders are deliberately isolating their Vorta from each other so they don't form any kind of attachments.

That seems very likely. In fact I think that apart from their Founder worship, the only kind of pleasure of ANY kind that Vorta are ever able to feel, is from eating roots and berries from their original homeworld...aside from that, though, there's nothing. Vorta do not love, they don't have sex, they can't get drunk, they don't enjoy anything at all other than serving the Founders. How boring that must be...

 

[Marie1]

I think the Vorta often worked together, the scientists especially. They probably got so used to their friends dying and being replaced that friendships were a bit... false.

I think, if the Vorta are smart, they recognize the importance and the abilities of the Jem'Hadar, but act contemptuous to uphold the Founder's genetic programming in the Jem'Hadar that the Vorta are superior- because it's not really true. The Jem'Hadar may not be as diplomatic, but they on screen are said to be smarter, as well as better fighters, stronger etc. The Vorta are smiley cowards and are made to try and wheedle their way into favourable negotiations before Jem'Hadar are sent in.

 

[indolover]

The Dominion essentially mimics a large organisation. the founders are the strategic level, the Vorta are the tactical level, and the Jem'Hadar are the operational level.. Whilst the Founders lead the Dominion, they could not be much without people to carry out their wishes, and to fight, conquer and die for them. Creating tension amongst the Vorta and Jem' Hadar makes sense from that angle.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Hmm, I remember in Rocks and Shoals, where Keevan tells the Jem Hadar not to worry, 'I'm the Vorta, I'll take care of you'.

Seems like almost a paternalistic or big brother relationship towards the Jem Hadar.

Interesting how Enabran Tain and some other sources say that the Founders distribute the 'White', and by eliminating the Founders, you eliminate the source of White.

Later, we learn that it is the Vorta who distributes the White and destroying the Founders doesn't necessarily mean eliminating the White.

Based on that, Tain sacrificed the entire Obsidian Order for some very naive info.

It seems theoretically, the Vorta could keep running the Dominion even without the Founders.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Hmm, I remember in Rocks and Shoals, where Keevan tells the Jem Hadar not to worry, 'I'm the Vorta, I'll take care of you'.

Seems like almost a paternalistic or big brother relationship towards the Jem Hadar.

Yeah, but those words ring kind of hollow, since that snake Keevan ultimately sent them to their deaths to save his own skin. But perhaps his words do have some weight, in that he was supposed to take care of them (for the sake of the Dominion, at least) and he failed, taking care of himself instead, putting his own survival above the needs of the Dominion.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Vorta do not love, they don't have sex, they can't get drunk, they don't enjoy anything at all other than serving the Founders. How boring that must be...

If you're programmed not to find it boring, then you won't find it boring. The Vorta always seem to be pretty content with whatever they're doing, and the only time they're unhappy is when they're confronting some external obstacle. As long as everyone is being obedient and cooperative and everything is going their way, they're happy as clams. It's not until you get a really defective one like Weyoun 6 that you start to see internally-produced unhappiness caused by independent thought and the existence of a conscience.

I think the Vorta often worked together, the scientists especially. They probably got so used to their friends dying and being replaced that friendships were a bit... false.

But Vorta never really die, unless they frak up and the Founders decide to retire their line and not allow resurrection, and in that case, they don't deserve resurrection. If the Vorta have any inkling towards relationships with their own kind, I'd imagine they'd be fairly strong, since they can depend on their friends never to die unless they deserve it. It would be like an exclusive club where every so often, someone gets the boot, and the others sneer and gossip about what a loser that guy was, and that'll never happen to us.

I think, if the Vorta are smart, they recognize the importance and the abilities of the Jem'Hadar, but act contemptuous to uphold the Founder's genetic programming in the Jem'Hadar that the Vorta are superior- because it's not really true.

The Vorta are programmed to act like jerks because the Jems are programmed to resent the way the Vorta act like jerks. That's part of the control that the Founders have built into the overall system.

 

[Marie1]

Vorta do not love, they don't have sex, they can't get drunk, they don't enjoy anything at all other than serving the Founders. How boring that must be...

If you're programmed not to find it boring, then you won't find it boring.

True. And there is an awful lot more to life than being drunk and having sex. Vorta seem to like strategy and games, they seem thrilled at their smug sense of superiority etc.

And we don't actually know they don't have sex. Quark only said so.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

And we don't actually know they don't have sex. Quark only said so.

Actually, Quark said that the Founders and the Jem'Hadar didn't have sex (or eat or drink). This was towards the end of season 5 when everyone was worried the Dominion would take over the station, and Quark being Quark, he was worried about how the takeover would effect his profits. He deals in food, drink and sex (in the Holosuites; although sexual encounters is not all they're used for, presumably many of the programs he provides are of a sexual nature). A not-dead-yet Ziyal tried to cheer him up by saying, "It might not be so bad. For all we know, the Vorta could be gluttinous, alcoholic sex maniacs." LOL! Which, um, no, I don't think so, but good one Ziyal! It always makes me giggle, and it cheered Quark up.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I remember in "The Ship", Kilana gave a sympathetic look at the other Jem Hadar as the Founder called out in pain from the wreckage, but I doubt it was over concern about the Jem Hadar.

Later, Sisko talks about all the lives lost because of the ship, including 'her men', as he really believed the Vorta cared about them,


But one of things I liked about DS9 is that they left so may subjects unexplained to guess about.

 

[Marie1]

^ She was probably worried they were going to kill her. lol

And we don't actually know they don't have sex. Quark only said so.

Actually, Quark said that the Founders and the Jem'Hadar didn't have sex (or eat or drink). This was towards the end of season 5 when everyone was worried the Dominion would take over the station, and Quark being Quark, he was worried about how the takeover would effect his profits. He deals in food, drink and sex (in the Holosuites; although sexual encounters is not all they're used for, presumably many of the programs he provides are of a sexual nature). A not-dead-yet Ziyal tried to cheer him up by saying, "It might not be so bad. For all we know, the Vorta could be gluttinous, alcoholic sex maniacs." LOL! Which, um, no, I don't think so, but good one Ziyal! It always makes me giggle, and it cheered Quark up.

Oh yeah! That's true. There something on this in the books, but that's not cannon.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I kind of wish there had been more exploration of the Vorta in particular and the Dominion in general ... of course, then we wouldn't be having our fun speculating about this stuff 10+ years later, so maybe it's not so bad.