Reinsdorf out of Coyotes bidding

[Canadave]

The latest in the saga surrounding the sale of the Phoenix Coyotes.

At this point, I'd most prefer to see Balsillie get the team, though Ice Edge also seems to be pretty realistic about the viability of a hockey team in Arizona. The NHL, of course, will probably either turn around and sell it to Reinsdorf if they win, or they'll fail to find a buyer and manage to mire it further into financial instability.

 

[Derishton]

Bettman's stubborn attitude to the Coyotes moving is increasingly incomprehensible. I can see why the NHL owners closed the wagons against Balsillie, as they're repreentatives of a particularly monopolistic form of the gangster CEO. But since Bettman is charged with the health and reputstion of the game, I wonder how he thought this court case would be a good thing for anyone.

Even if you factor in the protection of profits, can anyone argue that another three years of Phoenix would sell more merchandise than a new Canadian team?

 

[Danny99]

Balsillie is a egomaniac. As Canadians, we feel slighted because the team was taken from Canada and it's a Canadian that wants to buy the team. But that doesn't mean we should flock behind him like lost sheep.

I have no doubt the NHL wouldn't have had a problem with him if he hadn't tried to yank Pittsburgh (a team which had a good history in its market) or Nashville to Hamilton.

Of course hockey has failed in a lot of markets Bettman has expanded to (Atlanta, Phoenix, Florida), but are you going to fault him for trying to expand the fan base.

I find this excuse that he is a horrible commissioner to be just another Balsillie clan petty argument. He's not the Barack Obama of hockey, but neither is he the anti Christ he's made out to be.

If the team is going to leave Phoenix, put it in a market where it's the only game in town (Winnipeg, Northwestern United States), but don't whine just because the clan master isn't getting his way.

 

[Derishton]

Balsillie has made some bad moves, but Pittsburgh wasn't really his fault. He had a deal in place for a team that was losing money hand over fist in an arena that was too old by a long shot. If anything, he was played to force the city to committ to the new arena, which they did. I don't think anyone's complaining that Pittsburgh survived, but that doesn't mean Balsillie was unethical to have made a play for a struggling team. Do people really not recall why Lemieux now owns that team?

Yes, Balsillie's got an ego. I imagine the number of modest individuals who own sports franchises is somewhat small.

 

[Canadave]

Balsillie is a egomaniac. As Canadians, we feel slighted because the team was taken from Canada and it's a Canadian that wants to buy the team. But that doesn't mean we should flock behind him like lost sheep.

I have no doubt the NHL wouldn't have had a problem with him if he hadn't tried to yank Pittsburgh (a team which had a good history in its market) or Nashville to Hamilton.

As Derishton said, Balsillie was basically played by the league to help the Penguins get a deal in Pittsburgh. He's tried going through the normal channels for ownership, but the league kept shutting him down. I can hardly blame him for becoming confrontational and trying to carve his own path towards ownership.

Of course hockey has failed in a lot of markets Bettman has expanded to (Atlanta, Phoenix, Florida), but are you going to fault him for trying to expand the fan base.

No I can't, but I can very easily fault him for not understanding where the market is and attempting to put hockey in places where there was no demand for it. It'd be like the English Premiership deciding to relocate a team to Tulsa and hoping really hard that it would somehow magically create demand for soccer. Sports are no different from any other business, you need to open in places where people actually want your product.

I find this excuse that he is a horrible commissioner to be just another Balsillie clan petty argument. He's not the Barack Obama of hockey, but neither is he the anti Christ he's made out to be.

No, he's just a horrible commisioner, Balsillie or no Balsillie. I still don't think he even understands hockey; I mean he's a basketball man for frak's sake.

If the team is going to leave Phoenix, put it in a market where it's the only game in town (Winnipeg, Northwestern United States), but don't whine just because the clan master isn't getting his way.

Sure, that'd work too, but there's nothing wrong with Hamilton as an NHL location. I'm a Leafs fan, and I think they're due for a little local competition. And hell, if New York City can support three teams, I'm extremely confident that the Golden Horseshoe can accomodate one more. It ain't rocket science.

 

[Mallory]

We'll take them in Portland.

 

[Derishton]

I'll say I'm not thrilled with Hamilton, really, but one great aspect would be a three-way rivalry between Toronto, Ottawa, and Hamilton ... with Montreal and Buffalo in the mix as well. It would be exciting. California's hockey scene has been more interesting with three times, with some evidence that kids are actually playing hockey in the state now. If three times has that effect in California, why not Ontario?

(And I do realize that Florida is the counter-argument ....)

 

[Canadave]

We'll take them in Portland.

Do you think Portland could sustain a team? I've always thought Seattle might be the better choice in the PNW.

 

[Derishton]

I always argued for Seattle, too (as a big Canucks fan who sees a need for a true rivel to call her own), but they couldn't keep the Sonics.

 

[Danny99]

No I can't, but I can very easily fault him for not understanding where the market is and attempting to put hockey in places where there was no demand for it. It'd be like the English Premiership deciding to relocate a team to Tulsa and hoping really hard that it would somehow magically create demand for soccer. Sports are no different from any other business, you need to open in places where people actually want your product.

How many people said that about Dallas? Or any of the California teams?

Expansion is a flawed concept to begin with and I don't think the situation is as outrageous as an EPL team coming Tulsa. Though who thought Major League Soccer would continue to grow. Seems it magically created demand for soccer.

As a Leafs fan, I already know our numbers won't dwindle, but what about the Sabres, who are closer and already failing. Are they supposed to fold when their fans from north of the border in the Golden Horseshoe flock to Hamilton games?

I'll renew my comment that the team should be moved, that's a no brainer. But it needs to go to a place where it's the only game in town. I ask what's wrong with Winnipeg? Besides the Blue Bombers, there's no other game in town. Or Seattle? The Mariners and Sounders are on in the summer, but there's nothing out that way in the winter when it comes to professional sports.

 

[Derishton]

Again, though, I love the idea of a Seattle franchise, but they couldn't keep hold of an NBA franchise (then again, neither could Vancouver). And a Seattle team, in my daydreams, would prompt a divisional realignment in which the Pacific divison would, say, be composed of teams that actually play near the Pacific: Vancouver, Seattle (or Portland), and the three California teams.

But more than anything, bring back Winnipeg ... even if it means acknowledging that the NHL will never produce the revenue prodcued by major league baseball or American football. (That would also result in my desired dividion realignment, of course.)

 

[AdmiralGarak]

An interesting post I found on the 08-09 profits of the NHL teams, and the likelyhood of teams moving. (The first response in the link.)

The exact numbers need to be taken with a huge grain of salt (read the explanation for why some of the numbers seem low at the bottom of his post), but it provides a decent idea of which teams are in good/bad shape.

The Carolina Hurricanes and Florida Panthers both made money this past year according to documents filed by both the NHLPA and NHL after the discussions for the salary cap.

Both teams even announced their profits on their websites.

If anybody cares, here is the list that the NHL and NHLPA used in determining what the salary cap would be

I've edited it down to the southern and Canadian teams (+Buffalo), since they're the most relevant to the topic.

3. Los Angeles Kings 18.8MM
4. Toronto Maple Leafs 18.1MM
7. Anaheim Ducks 12.7MM
8. Dallas Stars 11.9MM
9. San Jose Sharks 11.3MM
15. Florida Panthers 4.4MM
17. Montreal Canadiens 3.8MM
18. Carolina Hurricanes 3.6MM
21. Vancouver Canucks 2.6MM
22. Buffalo Sabres 1.9MM
[highlight]24. Calgary Flames -4.4MM
25. Atlanta Thrashers -6.1MM
26. Nashville Predators -7.4MM
27. Edmonton Oilers -10.3MM
28. Tampa Bay Lightning -11.8MM
29. Ottawa Senators -22.7MM
30. Phoenix Coyotes -37.2MM[/highlight]

They actually seem to be pretty evenly matched, financially. It's clear that expanding back into Canada is not the cure-all that we hope it to be. Look at Edmonton & Ottawa, for godssake. And judging by the state of the Sabres and Senators, can Hamilton really be expected support a team?

 

[Canadave]

^ Yeah, it's true... Canadian teams aren't financially successful by default. Part of it is probably the dollar... it's the old problem of teams making profits worth 80% of what their payroll is worth.

Are you sure about that information, though? I know the Senators were in financial trouble before Melnyk stepped in and bought them, but I thought they were making money, now.

 

[Derishton]

I thought Ottawa was stable now, too, and Calgary really surprises me. Edmonton not so much.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

Are you sure about that information, though?

No, but the source seems legitimate. I'm guessing this does not include merchandising and the like-- hence Detroit and Montreal being so low. That might be enough to bump Calgary into the black, but there's no way to spin this as positive for the Oilers or the Sens.

 

[Mallory]

We'll take them in Portland.

Do you think Portland could sustain a team? I've always thought Seattle might be the better choice in the PNW.

Yeah, I think they could depending on the ownership. Seattle has better demographics, but they also have that public arena situation that drove the NBA out of town.

 

[Gil T.Azell]

We'll take them in Portland.

Do you think Portland could sustain a team? I've always thought Seattle might be the better choice in the PNW.

Yeah, I think they could depending on the ownership. Seattle has better demographics, but they also have that public arena situation that drove the NBA out of town.

I would think Seattle would be too close as they might be infringing on Vancouver territory being about 1-1/2 to 2 hrs away, but Portland is some 4 hrs south of the Boarder,
Still another team on the west coast would be nice.

As for the NHL wanting to buy Phoenix I've heard some sports casters/reporters say that it could be a conflict of interest??

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

As a Phoenix resident, I'm not particularly attached to the Coyotes. However, I'm really pissed off at the possibility of the Coyotes moving so soon after we built Jobing.com Arena for them (largely it seemed so that they would stop bitching about all of the obstructed view seating in the U.S. Airways Center).

I hope this ends up being a cautionary tale about the perils of using public money to build sports stadiums.

I think it would be funny if the Coyotes ended up back in Winnipeg. Full circle!

BTW, if the Coyotes moved to Hamilton, what do you think they would change the name to? Would they be the Jets again or what?

He's not the Barack Obama of hockey, but neither is he the anti Christ he's made out to be.

Your use of synonyms in this sentence confuses me.

Again, though, I love the idea of a Seattle franchise, but they couldn't keep hold of an NBA franchise (then again, neither could Vancouver).

How did that happen, BTW? I used to follow the NBA pretty closely but I've dropped out a little bit. What compelled the Seattle Supersonics & Vancouver Grizzlies to move to Oklahoma City & Memphis, respectively?

I suspect an NHL team might do very well in Portland. It seems they've been very good to the Trail Blazers over the years.