"Regeneration" questions

[Demiurge]

Hell, maybe the data on the cybernetic aliens were encountered were considered so important and classified it was loaded into the top secret central memory database that the Federation created to store their most important knowledge, Memory Alpha.

Which was then wiped out by the Zetarans in the TOS ep Lights of Zetar.

One thing that is very apparent, as is often the case in scifi societies created prior to the information age. The level of constant access and dissemination of information that we enjoy in the 20th century is greater than that in this fictional universe. Of course, the planet blew up back in 1992 (IIRC) according to this timeline.

 

[Demiurge]

@Timo - excellent analysis. The appearance of a cure isn't a cure. As we already know from the end of Best of Both Worlds.

 

[dregj]

always loved that ep

 

[eyeresist]

Except she completely flunked it - Picard still had a subspace transceiver in his brain in ST:FC...

Not mentioned in FC. Can you point to the relevant TNG episode?

 

[dregj]

they never explained how
he could still hear them

 

[Timo]

...Which is exactly what I was referring to. There was Borg magic inside Picard. Borg magic supposedly is based on implanted technology (rather than, say, telepathy). Ergo, odds are high there was implanted technology inside Picard.

Was Picard being particularly observant, even if only subconsciously, when he had Borg tech pop out of his face in that nightmare? Was that when the nanites inside him put together something macroscopic that made it possible for the Collective communications to start to flow? Clearly, nothing of the sort happened to him in "I, Borg" or "Descent" yet, so it happening here supposedly was intentional on the part of the Collective.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dregj]

no borg queen either

 

[Timo]

For all we know, the Queen is everywhere the Collective is. At least VOY makes it look very much like that. Sometimes she may lack the resources to incarnate; usually, she probably just doesn't bother.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

...Which is exactly what I was referring to. There was Borg magic inside Picard. Borg magic supposedly is based on implanted technology (rather than, say, telepathy). Ergo, odds are high there was implanted technology inside Picard.

You are right about magic -- my spider-sense is tingling!
But it could possibly be explained as repressed memories. Probably all Borg cubes use the same configuration, and Picard was able to draw out that info, but also unlocked some unpleasant associations at the same time. That's as good an explanation as any for what we see.

 

[dregj]

highly doubtful starfleet would let him run around with that shit in his head.
i assumed it was a remnant from his neurological reordering whilst assimilated

 

[Timo]

Probably all Borg cubes use the same configuration

But we're supposed to think that not only are Borg ships the result of endless regeneration, they are also devoid of any feature we could call a "configuration". There is no engine room or a command center, just decentralized functions that are constantly shifting focus.

This is rather borne out by what Picard actually does in the movie. He doesn't merely pick a spot - he also picks a specific moment, keeping the fleet waiting for that moment and letting half a dozen starships die. Supposedly, he has realtime knowledge of where and how the functions of of the ship are being routed at any given time, and picks the time when something suitably crucial is suitably close to the surface.

highly doubtful starfleet would let him run around with that shit in his head.

And they don't. Instead, they let him run in circles at the RNZ...

But Picard didn't betray the Federation again in "I, Borg" or "Descent", so he probably got a clean bill of health indirectly even when UFP medical technology wasn't able to provide that directly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

It could have been fun had the Borg known of the link Picard still had with them. Imagine him being used as a sleeper agent.

 

[Spot261]

Hell, maybe the data on the cybernetic aliens were encountered were considered so important and classified it was loaded into the top secret central memory database that the Federation created to store their most important knowledge, Memory Alpha.

Which was then wiped out by the Zetarans in the TOS ep Lights of Zetar.

One thing that is very apparent, as is often the case in scifi societies created prior to the information age. The level of constant access and dissemination of information that we enjoy in the 20th century is greater than that in this fictional universe. Of course, the planet blew up back in 1992 (IIRC) according to this timeline.

Really interesting thought, I hadn't considered that and it COULD tie up exactly why starfleet is caught so unawares when they do contact the borg. The problem is that if they were involved Section 31 would undoubtedly have their own records and would not likely sit idle for two centuries. Suppressing the information to prevent a panic/outside access is doubtless exactly how they would crisis manage the initial scenario post "Regenerations" but they exist to operate off the radar preparing responses for contingencies in ways that starfleet's MO prevent. They would have been using that data to plan responses to the Borg, both defensive and offensive, not just storing the data.

The E-D may not have had access to their information (why would they?) but the fact is the Borg on three occasions have got within spitting distance of Earth. On none of those occasions has there been evidence of any pre existing section 31 plan or technological miracle being put forward to stop them and that is difficult to explain. The only conclusion i can draw is that section 31 were not involved and that the information was stored in regular starfleet records at MA or somewhere similar, then lost.

 

[Shat Happens]

At the end of The Best of Both Worlds Picard declared he remembers "everything". That right after he talked Data and the gang on a Borg-Achilles heel exploit procedure. I took that as meaning he is now a permanent Borg expert.

As much as Locutus had led the Borg victoriously against Earth's forces only (or mainly) because he (Locutus) knew everything Picard knew about starships and Starfleet (and not because 40 starships aren't a big enough force aganist a cube), now Starfleet had the same advantage and the Borg won't be so big a threat in the future.

Of course now we know the Borg were still a big problem in the following episodes, but that is what I thought.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

At the end of The Best of Both Worlds Picard declared he remembers "everything". That right after he talked Data and the gang on a Borg-Achilles heel exploit procedure. I took that as meaning he is now a permanent Borg expert.

As much as Locutus had led the Borg victoriously against Earth's forces only (or mainly) because he (Locutus) knew everything Picard knew about starships and Starfleet (and not because 40 starships aren't a big enough force aganist a cube), now Starfleet had the same advantage and the Borg won't be so big a threat in the future.

Of course now we know the Borg were still a big problem in the following episodes, but that is what I thought.

But in First Contact he hears Borg communications......

It'd be funny if the Borg knew that would happen and sacrificed that cube for some tactical reason.

 

[Timo]

As much as Locutus had led the Borg victoriously against Earth's forces only (or mainly) because he (Locutus) knew everything Picard knew about starships and Starfleet (and not because 40 starships aren't a big enough force against a cube), now Starfleet had the same advantage and the Borg won't be so big a threat in the future.

For all we know, Locutus did everything he could to hinder the Borg performance at Wolf 359, and still 40'ish ships were no match to the Cube...

On none of those occasions has there been evidence of any pre existing section 31 plan or technological miracle being put forward to stop them and that is difficult to explain. The only conclusion i can draw is that section 31 were not involved and that the information was stored in regular starfleet records at MA or somewhere similar, then lost.

Or then every byte of secret knowledge was already poured into the anti-Borg project led by Shelby, and simply yielded nothing of worth.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dregj]

wasn't the defiant designed to fight the borg?
i kind of assumed Shelby had a hand in that

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

wasn't the defiant designed to fight the borg?
i kind of assumed Shelby had a hand in that

It was but it got trashed in the first minute of the battle in First Contact.

 

[Spot261]

I'm pretty sure "designed to fight the borg" does not equal "designed to be a one ship cube beater".

It's pretty clear that the FC fleet fared far better than the Wolf 359 one did, even prior to the E's arrival and the Defiant was portrayed as playing a part in that, which is all that was ever expected of her, to be an integral part of a fleet designed with the borg in mind.

Also, "within the first minute" is clearly untrue given that from the fleet engaging the borg to the Defiants weapons failure the Enterprise had time to get from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth, which according to various sources could be a matter of hours, days or even weeks.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I'm pretty sure "designed to fight the borg" does not equal "designed to be a one ship cube beater".

It's pretty clear that the FC fleet fared far better than the Wolf 359 one did, even prior to the E's arrival and the Defiant was portrayed as playing a part in that, which is all that was ever expected of her, to be an integral part of a fleet designed with the borg in mind.

Also, "within the first minute" is clearly untrue given that from the fleet engaging the borg to the Defiants weapons failure the Enterprise had time to get from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth, which according to various sources could be a matter of hours, days or even weeks.

OK wasn't thinking of that. I just wish we had seen more of the fight and more of the Defiant in the fight. She's supposed to have special weapons for fighting Borg.