"Regeneration" questions

[Tarek71]

At the end of that episode you have:

1. All the remaining Borg wreckage in the Arctic is still there. What happened to it? Can't just leave it sitting there.

2. The Enterprise fired two Borgified Tarkaleans in to space. What happened to their bodies? Presumably Enterprise went back to get them. Can't just leave them floating around, waiting for a ship to unwittingly take them on board.

3. The Borgified transport wreckage, which included to large visually intact sections. Where is that at? Too big to fit in Enterprise, and the NX 01 doesn't have a tractor beam....sooooo. Who picked it up? Maybe the Vulcans. IDK. Maybe various Starfleet ships were dispatched to collect it? Can't just leave that stuff floating around in space.

 

[Timo]

I very much doubt bodies floating in space could ever be noticed by passing spacecraft. Heck, even noticing a long-dead spacecraft seems very, very unlikely in the TNG era still. There has to be some sort of an energy signature there - a powerful and preferably exceptional one.

Now, Lore claims he was found floating in space. Might be he was lying. But he wasn't "dead", and ST:NEM shows that a Soongian android (at least a primitive model, or a possible Romulan replica) may indeed radiate rare "positronic" signals across interstellar distances and make the tactical console of a Federation starship go beep. We never got anything similar with the Borg... Either with Drones or with Cubes, Spheres or Rhomboids.

The wreckage in the Arctic is the issue, then. Is it still there? Or did the Borg shoot it to pieces when leaving, or perhaps use every last ounce of it?

Naturally, the stuff can be left sitting there - it did that just fine for the first hundred years. And probably the Borg did take at least all the useful/dangerous bits with them.

It doesn't sound as if global warming would still be a problem, so what sits in the ice stays in the ice. Probably. Now, what I wonder is why the research team had a warp-capable spacecraft and was "heavily armed"...?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jeffe525]

Geez Tarek. You confused me by turning a post from somewhere else into a thread here. Oh well... Here's my reply, again.

All that stuff is archived at section 31, except for Daniel's stuff. I think Daniels left his equipment with Archer for a reason. Had S31 taken it to use it for their own purposes, Daniels would've taken it back.

Either way, I don't think Regeneration really had anything to do with Starfleet tech advancement. Quantum dating would've confirmed when the arctic wreckage came from but it's obvious that the UFP still wasn't prepared when Q introduced Picard to the Borg 200+ years later.

 

[Tarek71]

Well, it occurred to me after I wrote it, that we could ask this on the ENT forum. I responded to your similar post there.

 

[Tarek71]

I very much doubt bodies floating in space could ever be noticed by passing spacecraft. Heck, even noticing a long-dead spacecraft seems very, very unlikely in the TNG era still. There has to be some sort of an energy signature there - a powerful and preferably exceptional one.

Now, Lore claims he was found floating in space. Might be he was lying. But he wasn't "dead", and ST:NEM shows that a Soongian android (at least a primitive model, or a possible Romulan replica) may indeed radiate rare "positronic" signals across interstellar distances and make the tactical console of a Federation starship go beep. We never got anything similar with the Borg... Either with Drones or with Cubes, Spheres or Rhomboids.

The wreckage in the Arctic is the issue, then. Is it still there? Or did the Borg shoot it to pieces when leaving, or perhaps use every last ounce of it?

Naturally, the stuff can be left sitting there - it did that just fine for the first hundred years. And probably the Borg did take at least all the useful/dangerous bits with them.

It doesn't sound as if global warming would still be a problem, so what sits in the ice stays in the ice. Probably. Now, what I wonder is why the research team had a warp-capable spacecraft and was "heavily armed"...?

Timo Saloniemi

I can't imagine that though. If you knew about that Borgified transport wreckage in space, in the Artic and the Borg bodies and body parts floating around, would you shrug and leave all of it there, hoping for the best?

Especially given how highly advanced and dangerous they know this technology is. I agree with Jeffe525 that there is no way they would just leave it floating around. But once you say that they would have meticulously collected every shard of it, would they really just archive it? How would they not spend years and decades studying this technology.

And yeah it did seem odd that the research team would be heavily armed. What were they doing there? I'll have to rewatch the episode, but did they ever say why a team was sent there? Did they stumble on it, or were they sent there to study the already discovered wreckage. I assumed the latter.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It would be highly unlikely that a passing starship could simply stumble across the bodies of the Tarkalean drones. Space is absolutely huge - things don't just run into each other for no reason. Those bodies would quickly be lost to the vastness of space and never be seen or found, ever again.

As for the wreckage of the Arctic outpost: IIRC, the Borg took everything of value when they assimilated the outpost's crew and transport ship. There wasn't anything left to salvage. Just a bunch of abandoned junk.

 

[Tarek71]

I dont agree that the bodies would be hard to find. But Starfleet knows those bodies are there. That's what I'm asking about. They know about the Borgified transport ship wreckage, whatevers left at the Arctic site, the scans made by Enterprise of the Borg, and of that same Borgified ship, Phlox's extensive data on the Nano probes and the Borg bodies.

 

[Shark]

Now, what I wonder is why the research team ... was "heavily armed"...?

Timo Saloniemi

^ That's a very good point. Perhaps the more conservative elements of our time made it's way into the future. (I'm only half-joking.) Maybe the technology was quite new at the time and very much in vogue?

It's very possible and even likely, that Archer and crew believed the two aliens to be dead and simply left them where they were. After all, they had not observed Borg operating in space without a suit so they'd have no reason to believe they survived.

As for the wreckage on Earth, I always assumed the Borg used it to enhance the commandeered Starfleet transport.

 

[Timo]

If you knew about that Borgified transport wreckage in space, in the Artic and the Borg bodies and body parts floating around, would you shrug and leave all of it there, hoping for the best?

If you had superbly important state secrets stored on a microdot, and accidentally dropped that in Sahara, would you shrug? I know I would. And finding that would be about a trillion times trillion times easier than spotting a corpse in space, to give a low-end estimate!

This is sort of the issue in "The Battle" already: Picard abandons his starship, making no effort to scuttle her, and then acts very, very surprised that the ship is found in Ferengi hands. Which is as it should be, as spotting a dead starship shouldn't be all that much easier than spotting the corpse. The size of the ship might take one order of magnitude out of that trillion times trillion, meaning there'd be no real difference.

But the Ferengi (somehow) knew that the wreck was at the Maxia system, which made the task at least a trillion times easier. The Borg wreckage was left in deep space, not at coordinates independently worth visiting.

But Starfleet knows those bodies are there. That's what I'm asking about.

So the worry is that Starfleet would misuse the flotsam? Surely Starfleet picking it up would be the very last thing to be considered helpful, then - it would be in the wrong hands by default!

Just delete the coordinates from the logs made of the "Regeneration" adventure, and it becomes flat out impossible for Starfleet to find those corpses and ship bits again.

After all, they had not observed Borg operating in space without a suit so they'd have no reason to believe they survived.

The Borg had survived much worse already, such as being buried in ice for a century. Archer would have every reason to think that they might survive. But so what? It would just be eternal imprisonment for them, some well-deserved suffering for evil villain adversary nasties.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tarek71]

But if I knew where it was, yes I'd pick it up or have it picked up. Highly advanced alien tech? Oh hell yes it would be picked up. Every last splinter of that ship, the sensor logs, Phlox's medical scans, the bodies, etc. All in known locations.

No way that would just be left out. Although I agree some data might be removed from the Enterprise sensor logs and medical database, but it would be removed by Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31 after they classified that information and locked down the specimens, wreckage, bodies and data.

The only issue is what did they do with all this Borg tech after they collected it. And what then? I am not buying the Raiders of the Lost Ark idea that they crate it all up and stick it in some massive warehouse and forget about it. Lol.

 

[Timo]

So you don't think Starfleet would be the villains? And they wouldn't be afraid that villains would gain access to the stuff now that Starfleet has brought it from the original secure locations to the insecure vaults of S31?

In that case, yes, there would be an effort to pick up the stuff. But would that effort succeed?

1) It would probably attract a bit of attention, at which point bigger boys, if alert, could step in and take the goods from Starfleet.
2) The only Starfleet asset capable of picking up the space wreckage and the bodies any time soon would be NX-01, whose exploits would be closely followed by the big boys.
3) The NX-01 heroes with their many ideas about ethics might simply refuse the job. Or, with their spotty record, botch it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tarek71]

I assume it is normal procedure to collect and analyze any specimens of alien technology that Starfleet comes across during it's travels. Especially anything believed to be advanced. But would I "trust" the 22nd century Starfleet with 24th Century Borg technology? IDK. Couldn't they be the villains? Almost any civilization or society could be.

If the 24th century Section 31 could engineer a genocidal plague for the Founders, I assume their 22nd Century colleagues could use Borg technology to help engineer any number of scenarios. If you are OK with exterminating the Founders, why not the Romulans or Klingons?

 

[Tarek71]

There is always a concern about classified information, facilities, specimens and research being accessed by any unauthorized personnel, "villains" or not. That doesn't stop them from having classified information, research, facilities, etc. Nor should it.

The Klingons and most others may not know anything about this. The Vulcans might come to procure the bodies and wreckage in space. We dont know what Starfleet, Archer or T'Pol shared with them. Maybe the Vulcans have been informed of the locations of the wrecked ship and the flushed bodies.

So of course they might want to. Or they might adhere to the Timo view that valuable advanced alien technology is not worth collecting. And should just be left to float around in space.

Or Starfleet informed the Vulcans that the bodies and wreckage will be picked up by Starfleet, and that's that.

 

[Timo]

I assume it is normal procedure to collect and analyze any specimens of alien technology that Starfleet comes across during it's travels.

This may be. But we have seen the heroes ignore alien debris fields before (okay, later, given the prequel nature of ENT), or fail to sacrifice redshirt lives in desperate attempts at securing mementos from doomed facilities, collapsing caves or whatnot, so they aren't anal-retentively careful about it. And for all we know, they collected one dead Drone or a representative body part thereof, but left all the rest floating out there, not just because doing so would be harmless, but also because that would leave material for future researchers who'd do a better job at it.

I guess the point I want to make is that you very well can "leave it floating around" out in space. Or most of it anyway. There's no real harm in it, other than not collecting the complete set for the mantelpiece.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tarek71]

I assume it is normal procedure to collect and analyze any specimens of alien technology that Starfleet comes across during it's travels.

This may be. But we have seen the heroes ignore alien debris fields before (okay, later, given the prequel nature of ENT), or fail to sacrifice redshirt lives in desperate attempts at securing mementos from doomed facilities, collapsing caves or whatnot, so they aren't anal-retentively careful about it. And for all we know, they collected one dead Drone or a representative body part thereof, but left all the rest floating out there, not just because doing so would be harmless, but also because that would leave material for future researchers who'd do a better job at it.

I guess the point I want to make is that you very well can "leave it floating around" out in space. Or most of it anyway. There's no real harm in it, other than not collecting the complete set for the mantelpiece.

Timo Saloniemi

I think they would collect it all for research. Yes, Phlox's medical scans of the tech alone would probably be enough to conduct further research. And they have wreckage at the arctic, the Enterprise scans of the Borgified transport etc.

So yes, Starfleet already has extensive info and samples even without going back for the bodies and transport wreckage. But no doubt in my mind that someone, Vulcans, Starfleet, Section 31 is going to secure both sites and collect everything.

 

[Shikarnov]

Either way, I don't think Regeneration really had anything to do with Starfleet tech advancement. Quantum dating would've confirmed when the arctic wreckage came from but it's obvious that the UFP still wasn't prepared when Q introduced Picard to the Borg 200+ years later.

Who knows; maybe it did. In Q-Who, the Enterprise phasers seemed remarkably effective against the Borg cube -- at least until Captain Picard ordered a time out during which the Borg had a chance to analyze the phaser strikes and adapt a defense.

Screenshots:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=50&page=12

 

[Shark]

After all, they had not observed Borg operating in space without a suit so they'd have no reason to believe they survived.

The Borg had survived much worse already, such as being buried in ice for a century. Archer would have every reason to think that they might survive. But so what? It would just be eternal imprisonment for them, some well-deserved suffering for evil villain adversary nasties.

Timo Saloniemi

Well no, he genuinely thought they were dead. He even hesitated 'killing' them. And T'pol even reassures him afterwards that he "Had no choice"; that makes it pretty conclusive that they believed they were killing them.

 

[Timo]

Yeah. All I'm saying is that Archer would have had every reason to think that killing wouldn't be fatal for them. Not that he would have acted reasonably on that information...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

I suggest you watch and listen to the commentary by the writers of the episode of "Regeneration"

At the end of that episode you have:

1. All the remaining Borg wreckage in the Arctic is still there. What happened to it? Can't just leave it sitting there.

They obviously picked it all up by the time they left. It must not need a Borg Cube to tractor beam everything.

2. The Enterprise fired two Borgified Tarkaleans in to space. What happened to their bodies? Presumably Enterprise went back to get them. Can't just leave them floating around, waiting for a ship to unwittingly take them on board.

They probably got killed by the vacuum of space and like said before, space is HUGE.

3. The Borgified transport wreckage, which included to large visually intact sections. Where is that at? Too big to fit in Enterprise, and the NX 01 doesn't have a tractor beam....sooooo. Who picked it up? Maybe the Vulcans. IDK. Maybe various Starfleet ships were dispatched to collect it? Can't just leave that stuff floating around in space.

They might, do they always pick up after themselves when they encounter something new?

 

[STEPhon IT]

At the end of that episode you have:

1. All the remaining Borg wreckage in the Arctic is still there. What happened to it? Can't just leave it sitting there.

2. The Enterprise fired two Borgified Tarkaleans in to space. What happened to their bodies? Presumably Enterprise went back to get them. Can't just leave them floating around, waiting for a ship to unwittingly take them on board.

3. The Borgified transport wreckage, which included to large visually intact sections. Where is that at? Too big to fit in Enterprise, and the NX 01 doesn't have a tractor beam....sooooo. Who picked it up? Maybe the Vulcans. IDK. Maybe various Starfleet ships were dispatched to collect it? Can't just leave that stuff floating around in space.

And don't forget Dr. Phlox amazing discovery to preventing being a Borg; which was never used or re-discovered in TNG, or Voyager.