Regarding TWOK's popularity

[RyuRoots]

First off, I am not attempting to troll or to invoke anyone's ire. It is an honest query.

Currently, I've seen 7 of the ten movies before XI.
Wrath of Khan
Voyage Home
Undiscovered Country
Generations
First Contact
Insurrection
Nemesis

Of these, I think TWOK is by far the worst. It had a stupid (and I mean literally, he just...didn't seem very intelligent) villain who was constantly played up as a genius. It had the hammy over-acting that Shatner is famous for. The violence in the movie was absolutely ridiculous. It's like they thought it would inject excitement into the film, but after a while I'm just wondering "okay....why." because it seems so gratuitous. The battle in the nebula is one of the most boring I've seen. The score is...not impressive, to say the least. Saavik comes off as annoying. And I think it's sort of a cop-out that Khan and Kirk not once met face to face in the movie. The worst part, however, is probably the scene where Admiral Kirk shows up on the Enterprise. The whole scene screams "United States Navy" and doesn't feel like Starfleet at all. I half-expected someone to say "Sir, yes sir! Thank you SIR! May I have another SIR!"

The only good points of the movie were Spock and McCoy in general, and the glasses scenes. Insurrection, which I feel to be by far the weakest TNG movie, at least has a cool battle and an amazing soundtrack.

Undiscovered Country and First Contact were the highest points that TOS and TNG (respectively) ever reached if you ask me, both from the point of telling a great story and effectively resolving something that has been going for a long time. Kirk's hatred for Klingons in TUC and Picard's desire for revenge against the Borg in FC.

The tl;dr version is this: If you think TWOK is best ST movie or at least best TOS movie, why do you think so? I suppose in honesty part of this post is a vent for my disappointment in the movie, but I am honestly curious why people like it. That's my opinion. Tell me yours.

 

[JustKate]

I have never liked TWOK either - not even a tiny bit. I dislike the episode of TOS on which it is based, and so to me the movie just seems like an overblown sequel to an episode I never liked in the first place.

One of the things that really startled me when I started visiting Trek sites after a long absence wasn't that lots of people like this movie - tastes differ, after all - but how many people consider this the best Trek movie. So it's kind of a relief to see your post, RyuRoots - I knew I wasn't the only one, but I am also pretty sure we are in the minority.

 

[Red Ranger]

Well, it sounds like you've made up your mind about the film. And I have to admit, saying INS had at least a cool battle doesn't forgive the idiotic story that was like a poor TNG ep.

I like TWOK because it deals with the subject of aging and life in general. It also is a kind of pre-TNG in that it literally was the next generation in the form of Saavik and David, as well as the other cadets. I always wished they could have introduced other new characters in the subsequent movies, melding the old school Starfleet with the Young Turks like Saavik.

I like Khan in this movie. He plays the role of Captain Ahab, showing that even a genetically engineered superman can be blinded by obsession. And let's face it, the fact that nearly 20 years after reading technical manuals, he and his followers were able to operate a starship is pretty impressive.

TWOK also introduced the concept of the no-win scenario, the Kobayashi Maru, and I really got a kick hearing how Kirk "beat" the scenario.

Another reason I like TWOK is that it moves, unlike the inert TMP. While TMP has some great concepts, it's not that well executed, and is IMHO, a poor imitation of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Red Ranger

 

[Xerxes1979]

TWOK is the most quotable, most rewatchable and outside ST:IV the most accessable to the general public.

Just because you percieve some of the acting and dialogue as corny does not override these important aspects of its success.

Khan was successful in 1982 and remains so for the same reasons that it appealed to audiences originally.



P.S.

Please watch ST:V before determining the relative merrits of the various Trek films.

 

[RyuRoots]

JustKate: Always neat to find someone with a similar point of view. And yeah, it's how widespread the thought is that throws me off, not so much that people like it.

Red Ranger: About Insurrection: Oh no, not at all. In fact, I completely agree. When I first watched the movie, I said to my friend that it was barely a movie, more like a longer bad TNG episode.

Xerxes1979: The most quotable and most rewatchable are opinion, and having a story arc from the television show seems like it'd make it less accessible than say, TUC I would imagine. And I said specifically of the 7 I had seen, not of all 10. Beause I can't say anything about TMP, TSFS or FF as I haven't seen them.

 

[Maurice]

While I don't actively dislike TWOk the way the OP does, I can say it's a film that I've found less and less impressive as years go by. I find it heavy handed, and I feel it's a fairly criminal waste of Montalban, who only has one good scene and otherwise is twirling his metaphorical moustache. The film does have its good points, but Horner's retread score isn't one of them.

 

[cardinal biggles]

^Just curious — which do you think is Montalban's one good scene?

 

[DaleC76]

Khan was crazed and obsessed with revenge, which is why he doesn't make the smartest of decisions in the movie. I also think the film was better off without a Kruge-like battle between him and Kirk.

 

[Red Ranger]

Khan was crazed and obsessed with revenge, which is why he doesn't make the smartest of decisions in the movie. I also think the film was better off without a Kruge-like battle between him and Kirk.

You know, in an earlier draft, they did want to have some kind of fight between Kirk and Khan. The original screenwriter, Jack B. Sowards, wanted to establish that Khan was some kind of "mystic," able to project himself into others minds, and that he and Kirk would have some kind of violent fight with barbed whips, but no matter how hard he beats him, Kirk doesn't break, so Khan stops off his mental attack. -- RR

 

[Basil]

TWOK is the best, the only Trek film with any real life to it and where the emotions and motivations are immediately accessible. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it does not have to be.

 

[Saito S]

To RyuRoots and JustKate: You're not alone! I'm with you! Fight the power! *shakes fist*

Ahem. Anyway, in all seriousness... despite my above rallying cry, I actually don't bear any ill will toward anyone who does love TWOK, but I also found it to be average, at best, as Trek movies go. I'd say I more or less agree with most of what RyuRoots said about it, as far as why I don't care for it. In addition, there was a sort of heavy seriousness about it that felt very forced to me. One of the common complaints about TMP was that it was very slow and took itself way too seriously. TWOK was supposed to improve on that, but to me, while it wasn't "too slow" like TMP was, it was still too serious, just a different kind. Where TMP was boring-serious, TWOK had this tense, almost worried seriousness, which as I said above, just felt forced and artificial. I come away with the impression that regardless of the actual content of the film's events, I've just watched a movie about people wringing their hands in anxiety.

 

[Maurice]

^Just curious — which do you think is Montalban's one good scene?

His first. It's the only one where he gets to do anything.

 

[Myasishchev]

Khan was crazed and obsessed with revenge, which is why he doesn't make the smartest of decisions in the movie. I also think the film was better off without a Kruge-like battle between him and Kirk.

You know, in an earlier draft, they did want to have some kind of fight between Kirk and Khan. The original screenwriter, Jack B. Sowards, wanted to establish that Khan was some kind of "mystic," able to project himself into others minds, and that he and Kirk would have some kind of violent fight with barbed whips, but no matter how hard he beats him, Kirk doesn't break, so Khan stops off his mental attack. -- RR

'Kay.

I for one am glad they didn't feel the need to meet face-to-face. It avoided a scene contrived just for the event, and made it feel more real.

I can see why someone might say TWOK's not their favorite--it's not mine. TSFS or TUC is, and these days I'm leaning more toward TSFS. I hold this opinion alone amongst my peers, which is part of the reason why I hold it.

But even for its flaws--and logical gaffes, of which there are a few--it is a great movie. I'm surprised that someone (who likes Trek otherwise) actively dislikes it.

Buy, hey, it's a diverse and varied universe.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I always thought TWOK was the best with character development, growth and themes and whatever. Simply put, it had great emotional impact on people. Sure, there are plot holes large enough to fly the Enterprise-D through, but no other Star Trek film deals with life, death, growing old, tackling the impossible... human things, human conditions- quite as well as TWOK.

Screw impressive space battles. Screw the qualtiy of the soundtrack.

I want a movie with some goddamned heart.

That's why a ton of Star Trek fans will tell you TWOK is the best one.

 

[Praetor]

Well said, Jitty.

 

[ST-One]

I always thought TWOK was the best with character development, growth and themes and whatever. Simply put, it had great emotional impact on people. Sure, there are plot holes large enough to fly the Enterprise-D through, but no other Star Trek film deals with life, death, growing old, tackling the impossible... human things, human conditions- quite as well as TWOK.

Screw impressive space battles. Screw the qualtiy of the soundtrack.

I want a movie with some goddamned heart.

That's why a ton of Star Trek fans will tell you TWOK is the best one.

And as a plus, TWOK had those impressive space battles (for an early 80s film) and a really good soundtrack (even though it's the hip-thing to dislike Horner's work)

 

[seigezunt]

I always thought TWOK was the best with character development, growth and themes and whatever. Simply put, it had great emotional impact on people. Sure, there are plot holes large enough to fly the Enterprise-D through, but no other Star Trek film deals with life, death, growing old, tackling the impossible... human things, human conditions- quite as well as TWOK.

Screw impressive space battles. Screw the qualtiy of the soundtrack.

I want a movie with some goddamned heart.

That's why a ton of Star Trek fans will tell you TWOK is the best one.

I agree. I think TWOK was the best in terms of good story, beginning, middle, end. Some continuity thrown in, and a great death scene which still makes me shed a tear. TUC a close second.

 

[Supervisor 194]

I think context has a lot to do with it. I saw TWOK in the theater when it opened. Then, Star Trek meant...Star Trek--Kirk, Spock McCoy, the Enterprise. There wasn't decades of spin-offs: there was just the 79 episodes and 1 previous movie. If you were a Trek fan, that was your frame of reference. In the years since, the franchise has gone in different directions, acting styles have changed, and so on, and fans come on board who may not have seen (or have much appreciation) for the original show.

But back then: coming off a slightly disappointing first movie and seeing a very character driven story that explores and advances the main characters of Star Trek in a way that had not really been done before as well as having very good effects for the time in regards to the space battle--it was something special. And still is to me--but I see it through the eyes of the 11-year-old Trekkie who was blown away sitting in that theater watching it unfold.

 

[Red Ranger]

I always thought TWOK was the best with character development, growth and themes and whatever. Simply put, it had great emotional impact on people. Sure, there are plot holes large enough to fly the Enterprise-D through, but no other Star Trek film deals with life, death, growing old, tackling the impossible... human things, human conditions- quite as well as TWOK.

Screw impressive space battles. Screw the qualtiy of the soundtrack.

I want a movie with some goddamned heart.

That's why a ton of Star Trek fans will tell you TWOK is the best one.

And as a plus, TWOK had those impressive space battles (for an early 80s film) and a really good soundtrack (even though it's the hip-thing to dislike Horner's work)

Yeah, what's with all the hating on James Horner? TWOK has a great, energetic score, esp. the increasingly dramatic music as Reliant closes in on Enterprise. The one I didn't like was his work on Aliens -- that sounded like TWOK lite. -- RR

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

It's become trendy these days for Star Trek fans to hate on things they love.