Redemption: Was Non-Interference the Correct Path?

[Kruezerman]

I'm watching Part 1 right now and when the Enterprise turned away from the Bortas when she was under attack and I scratched my head. Why would allies not turn to defend against what is essentially a rebel force against the legitimate government?

I understand the idea that all military intervention is bad, but it isn't if is for an actual cause. Is the Prime Directive so binding, so absolute, that the Federation is an isolationist state?

 

[Timo]

Supposedly, the treaty with the Klingons would include clauses for military aid - I can't see the Klingons signing it otherwise. But the UFP would do well to keep internal unrest out of the military cooperation equation! Not only because of Starfleet getting swamped by dilemmas like the above one, but also because the Klingons would certainly take any excuse to meddle in the internal affairs of the UFP if allowed to.

The episode dialogue does not directly mention the Prime Directive (Picard speaks of "the principle of noninterference" only), but a comparable scenario in the DS9 second season opening trilogy does. Apparently, the PD indeed unambiguously stops the UFP from interfering in the internal affairs of others, even if cooperation against external threats is okay.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[velour]

Even before the Klingon civil war happened, Picard already muddied the waters regarding the meaning and legitimacy of the prime directive and the meaning of non-interference in Klingon internal affairs.

On the one hand, Picard regarded the conflict between the Gowran faction and the Duras faction as an internal Klingon affair, a civil war. Yet on the other hand, he directly interfered in Klingon internal politics when he accepted the position of arbiter and then proceeded to pick Gowran as the Klingon leader.

Remember Picard was wearing his Starfleet uniform when he performed the arbiter ritual.

I assume Picard's actions and words in Redemption -- as well as the related Klingon episodes that led up to Redemption --reflected Federation policy.

The Fed's prime directive and non interference policy in this matter was a confused mess.

Although Picard was not consistent in the application of the Fed's non-interference policy, I think Picard was right in labeling the civil war as an internal Klingon matter.

If you consider this from a moral perspective, I suppose Picard's decision to not come to the aid of Gowran was the correct one, because he followed the non-interference policy. He practiced what he preached -- at least, in this narrow instance.

But from a geopolitical perspective, it seemed sensible to toss aside the non-interference policy.

It was obvious that Picard -- and the Feds -- favored the Gowran faction, after all, it was Picard who picked Gowran to be the Klingon's top honcho in the first place. If Picard deemed it essential to the Fed's interest that Gowran win the civil war, then why not do what must be done to help Gowran defeat his enemies?

Picard already, in the past, interfered in internal Klingon matters, so why not do so again?

Ultimately, Picard did come to Gowran's aid but only after he discovered that the Romulans were going to militarily support the Duras faction. Because there was another foreign power involved, this gave Picard the excuse to militarily support Gowran.

 

[Timo]

...In practice, not firing on Klingon ships was probably the smart move from the UFP point of view. In terms of the alliance, letting Gowron be killed by his rivals might well be a lesser evil than being caught in the act of fighting against Klingons.

And of course the indirect approach that Picard chose, the one that exposed the Romulan connection, was a far more effective way to destroy Gowron's enemies than the use of phasers and photon torpedoes would have been. Fired-upon Klingons would be formidable political foes, especially if dead; discredited and ridiculed Klingons would be defeated and powerless foes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Trekker4747]

I'm watching Part 1 right now and when the Enterprise turned away from the Bortas when she was under attack and I scratched my head. Why would allies not turn to defend against what is essentially a rebel force against the legitimate government?

I understand the idea that all military intervention is bad, but it isn't if is for an actual cause. Is the Prime Directive so binding, so absolute, that the Federation is an isolationist state?

I sort of wonder that as well. Heck, the alliance between the Federation and the Klingons came about when a Federation ship stepped into aconfrontation between the Klingons and Romulans.

I would think the Federation staying out of the Klingon civil-war would have jeopardized the relationship. Had the Federation not acted, in the minor way they did at Picard's insistence, whatever power came out on the other end would have dissolved the relationship. Gowron because the relationship didn't help when they needed it to if the Feds wouldn't protect his government and Duras because, well, Duras.

 

[Kruezerman]

Which makes me wonder if the Klingon distrust of the Federation is actually justified. They don't sound very reliable of their reason for not helping is simply because they can't.

 

[MacLeod]

Even before the Klingon civil war happened, Picard already muddied the waters regarding the meaning and legitimacy of the prime directive and the meaning of non-interference in Klingon internal affairs.

On the one hand, Picard regarded the conflict between the Gowran faction and the Duras faction as an internal Klingon affair, a civil war. Yet on the other hand, he directly interfered in Klingon internal politics when he accepted the position of arbiter and then proceeded to pick Gowran as the Klingon leader.

Remember Picard was wearing his Starfleet uniform when he performed the arbiter ritual.

I assume Picard's actions and words in Redemption -- as well as the related Klingon episodes that led up to Redemption --reflected Federation policy.

The Fed's prime directive and non interference policy in this matter was a confused mess.

Although Picard was not consistent in the application of the Fed's non-interference policy, I think Picard was right in labeling the civil war as an internal Klingon matter.

If you consider this from a moral perspective, I suppose Picard's decision to not come to the aid of Gowran was the correct one, because he followed the non-interference policy. He practiced what he preached -- at least, in this narrow instance.

But from a geopolitical perspective, it seemed sensible to toss aside the non-interference policy.

It was obvious that Picard -- and the Feds -- favored the Gowran faction, after all, it was Picard who picked Gowran to be the Klingon's top honcho in the first place. If Picard deemed it essential to the Fed's interest that Gowran win the civil war, then why not do what must be done to help Gowran defeat his enemies?

Picard already, in the past, interfered in internal Klingon matters, so why not do so again?

Ultimately, Picard did come to Gowran's aid but only after he discovered that the Romulans were going to militarily support the Duras faction. Because there was another foreign power involved, this gave Picard the excuse to militarily support Gowran.

It's been a while since I've seen the episode but wasn't Picard wearing a Klingon Sash or something?

And it's not like Picard had much choice in the matter as to whom became the next Klingon Chancellor saying how the other challanger was dead. Besides it was never prvoen which side had K'mpec assassinated.

 

[Count]

The big problem is that the PD is essentially muddied a lot since the old TOS days. In TNG it did effectively turn the Federation into an isolationist nation, whereas in TOS, they had no problems stopping klingons from screwing around on Capella 4, or interfering with Landru simply because a federation ship crashed there.

In Redemption's sake, the real problem is that Gowron had not officially been crowned as Chancellor when the bortas was attacked, the empire essentially had no leader and the party attacking him was the rivals who were attempting to gain leadership themselves (Ie: toral thru Duras' challenge), so until Gowron was crowned, really, neither side was technically a rebel side at that point. the federation would have literally been engaging in direct meddling by picking the leader of the empire before Gowron's ascension if Picard blew away the attacking BOPs.

 

[jimbotron]

One aspect of this episode didn't ring true to me. Duras' forces attack Gowron, and Picard's response is to withdraw. Kurn comes to the rescue, and the Duras forces withdraw as well. Gowron's then says to signal to the Enterprise to return to witness the installation ceremony.

He sure got over them bailing pretty quickly. Wouldn't he have been enraged that the Federation turned its back on the "true" leader of the Klingon empire? He seemed way too cordial about that.

 

[Trekker4747]

One aspect of this episode didn't ring true to me. Duras' forces attack Gowron, and Picard's response is to withdraw. Kurn comes to the rescue, and the Duras forces withdraw as well. Gowron's then says to signal to the Enterprise to return to witness the installation ceremony.

He sure got over them bailing pretty quickly. Wouldn't he have been enraged that the Federation turned its back on the "true" leader of the Klingon empire? He seemed way too cordial about that.

Well, in the end, the Federation did provide some measure of aid in the civil-war and he was planning on "re-writing history" to remove any Federation involvement anyway, further, well, Picard *was* responsible for him being even there to be installed anyway, so I guess he got over it.

And while he hadn't been installed, officially, as the Chancellor just yet he was for all intents and purposes the rightful leader of the Klingon Empire. I'd say equivalent to a "President Elect." If a person had been rightfully selected as the next President but the rules and laws of our nation and his opponent started a civil war because he thought *he* should be installed as President our allies, or any support, should rightfully go behind the man who was legally selected as President.

The Duras tried to start the rebellion and civil war on the notion that the Federation had more to do with the choice than any Klingon rites or traditions but we all know that was their "talking point" and gambit, so to speak. The Duras just wanted the power and, more over, facilitate a union between the Klingons and the Romulans. They couldn't care less about the Federation being involved in the selection, Duras himself didn't seem to care. He had some squabbles about the methodology Picard went with but seemed to accept the rites of succession Picard went with.

Though, I think (Kempec?) was a bit foolish and short-sighted in selecting Picard as the arbiter. He really should have known the problems it would stir-up considering Picard was an outsider and not only that a member of a government/organization the Klingons had only relatively recently had peaceful relations with. Picard mostly from an era when there were struggles between the Klingons and Federation.

It *may* have made more sense for Kempec if he really didn't trust any councilman or other Klingon to give Worf his honor back and select HIM as the arbiter but even that would have caused its own problems. Given Worf's recent dis-commendation and the presumed connections his family had with the Romulans.

Also, the Duras didn't seem to be *too* secretive about the Romulan connections, particularly when the civil-war started. Certainly those who stood with them would want to know where supplies and aid were coming from and would notice the activity along the Romulan border and the occasional Romulan ship in the area. Give the history between the Klingons and Romulans you'd think, despite their feelings on Gowron and how he got to where he was, the Klingons supporting Duras wouldn't like the Romulan connections.

 

[RunawayStarShip]

One aspect of this episode didn't ring true to me. Duras' forces attack Gowron, and Picard's response is to withdraw. Kurn comes to the rescue, and the Duras forces withdraw as well. Gowron's then says to signal to the Enterprise to return to witness the installation ceremony.

He sure got over them bailing pretty quickly. Wouldn't he have been enraged that the Federation turned its back on the "true" leader of the Klingon empire? He seemed way too cordial about that.

Eh, getting Picard to return is as much rubbing his face in it as being actually "nice". Plus, just because Picard was unwilling to get involved didn't mean that the Federation Council would react the same way. Picard was just the most convenient Federation representative at the time. After all, Starfleet did decide to send a task force to the Klingon-Romulan border.

Once Federation assistance was no longer needed, Gowron simply ignored Picard when he needed to borrow a Klingon ship in "Unification".

 

[BillJ]

The TNG Prime Directive sucks ass.

 

[Kruezerman]

Succinct and to the point. But the question is whether it bought dinner first or if it was just a booty call.

Inquiring minds need to know Bill. The Great Bird of the Galaxy demands it!

 

[T'Girl]

Why would allies not turn to defend against what is essentially a rebel force against the legitimate government?

Because at that time it was seen as a internal matter. The Klingons are a contentious people, changes in leadership are legitimately accomplished by duets, murder and combat. If the Dura family had won the "civil war" the person they placed in the head of council's chair would have been the rightful leader of the Klingon Empire.

Yet on the other hand, he directly interfered in Klingon internal politics when he accepted the position of arbiter and then proceeded to pick Gowran as the Klingon leader.

Picard's reputation was built as a Starfleet officer, an impartial diplomat, but in his role as arbiter he was acting as a individual and not a Starfleet officer. Bringing in a disinterested third party to make this kind of decision make abundant sense.

It was obvious that Picard -- and the Feds -- favored the Gowran faction, after all, it was Picard who picked Gowran to be the Klingon's top honcho in the first place.

That doesn't follow.

Picard had to vet between two Klingons, based on the Klingon rule book. There nothing to indicate that Picard or the Federation favored either one of them. There seems to have been good relations between the Empire and the Federation during K'mpec's rule, another K'mpec (pragmatic calm senior leadership) would probably have been the Federation choice, but such a person wasn't on the short list for Picard's consideration.

Because there was another foreign power involved, this gave Picard the excuse to militarily support Gowran.

The decision to intervene was made by a Starfleet Admiral, not Picard.

It *may* have made more sense for Kempec if he really didn't trust any councilman or other Klingon to give Worf his honor back and select HIM as the arbiter

Worf was a nobody, and his previous dealings with Duras hardly made him impartial.

the Duras didn't seem to be *too* secretive about the Romulan connections, particularly when the civil-war started.

It was the revelation of the Duras connection to the Romulans that made the Duras coalition fall apart. It was kept a secret.

")

 

[Makarov]

Is being isolationist state such a bad thing in this situation? Does the Federation really want to get dragged into a Klingon civil war when they needed to be preparing for things like the Borg.

 

[Memory Alpha]

I guess military intervention is ratcheting things up quite a bit from merely stepping in to help settle a political dispute. I mean I think the Duras sisters and family were looking for any wedge they could get (and maybe had that in mind all along, I don't know, I haven't watched Sins and Redemption in a while), so if Picard decided at that instance to intervene militarily on his own, it could have escalated drastically. Or so I'm sure went his thinking. I also think Picard didn't think the Duras family was as much of a threat as they turned out to be; once he realized it, I think he decided to go through the channels and do it right.

The Prime Directive is often an excuse or a cover, I think. It's a one-size-fits-all clear cut kind of measuring stick where that sort of approach is bound to cause complications and problems.

 

[BillJ]

Is being isolationist state such a bad thing in this situation? Does the Federation really want to get dragged into a Klingon civil war when they needed to be preparing for things like the Borg.

But if a government loyal to the Romulans gains power, then you're probably going to end up fighting a war anyway. Probably more of a full blown war instead of simply helping an ally.

 

[velour]

Picard's reputation was built as a Starfleet officer, an impartial diplomat, but in his role as arbiter he was acting as a individual and not a Starfleet officer. Bringing in a disinterested third party to make this kind of decision make abundant sense.

Picard wasn't wearing civilian garb when he performed the arbiter ritual. He was wearing his Starfleet uniform. That scene didn't give the impression that he was acting as an individual civilian on his own time. The wearing of his Starfleet uniform gave the impression that Picard wasn't merely acting on his own behalf.

In the lead up to the arbiter ceremony, Picard made it known that being the arbiter was a conflict of interest for him. He was right, it was a conflict of interest. Picard was not a disinterested party. He should never have accepted the role of arbiter.

Also, before the ceremony, it was shown that Picard and the Feds had relatively good relations with Gowran. Gowran was their man. It was in the Fed's interest that Gowran be the leader. So it was no surprise that Gowran was the one Picard chose to be Klingon leader.

 

[Trekker4747]

Picard wasn't wearing civilian garb when he performed the arbiter ritual. He was wearing his Starfleet uniform. That scene didn't give the impression that he was acting as an individual civilian on his own time. The wearing of his Starfleet uniform gave the impression that Picard wasn't merely acting on his own behalf.

Eh, that has less to do with the role he was acting in on Q'onos and more to do with costuming budget and logistics; either come up with an appropriate Klingon/Human arbiter clothes that work for Stewart and the look/tone of the show or just have him the uniform which we pretty much see the officers in all of the time anyway which, theoretically, I made for maximum comfort at all times?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They saw it as a civil war. That's why they needed to prove the Romulans were involved, because if it's an external conflict they can get involved.