Redemption Part 2 Guinan
- Thread starter YARN
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All she did in Redemption II was tell Picard that Sela was telling him the truth, that Tasha was her mother. She doesn't put any blame on Picard, just delivers the facts as far as she knows them.
YARN
Fleet Captain
From Yesterday's Enterprise
PICARD: What you're suggesting
GUINAN: I'm not suggesting. That ship from the past is not supposed to be here. It's got to go back.
From Redemption Part 2
PICARD: If you have only a vague intuition
GUINAN: You can't just dismiss this. If I'm right, then you are responsible for this whole situation.
She does qualify her comment; "If I'm right" is the qualifying clause for "then you are responsible for this situation."
But, she is right. The Romulan Commander is the daughter of Yar.
Therefore, in her assessment in Redemption Part 2, Picard is responsible for the WHOLE situation.
NOTE: This isn't airy-fairy speculation about what she "might" say -- what you see above is good-old fashioned Modus Ponens. What Guinan (in Redemption Part 2) is logically committed to by way of her own assertions is that Picard is responsible for the whole situation.
I agree with you that she is rather abdicative of her own fault. In fact, it was Guinan's own indiscretion which caused Tasha to find out her alternate fate, in the first place, but she's not wrong in what she said. The ENT-C did need to go back, & Picard does bear sole responsibility for transferring her, which is the direct cause of this aberration. Tasha shouldn't have been there
The problem is that Guinan's "vague intuitions" about the alt-timeline are just that... vague. She doesn't really remember any of it well
She says "And I think you sent her there" She's working with a half-assed memory at best, but I doubt she could've forgotten her own involvement, & purposely withheld it, likely because it wouldn't have helped anything, & only served to dissuade Picard from heeding her warning
Hopefully we can imagine her being honorable enough to confess the whole story to him, in time. One thing is certain, by the time of "Time's Arrow" she's learned her lesson, & knows not to tinker with that stuff. In essence, she's a pretty poor temporal agent, or at least has inefficient tools for the trade
The problem is that Guinan's "vague intuitions" about the alt-timeline are just that... vague. She doesn't really remember any of it well
She says "And I think you sent her there" She's working with a half-assed memory at best, but I doubt she could've forgotten her own involvement, & purposely withheld it, likely because it wouldn't have helped anything, & only served to dissuade Picard from heeding her warning
Hopefully we can imagine her being honorable enough to confess the whole story to him, in time. One thing is certain, by the time of "Time's Arrow" she's learned her lesson, & knows not to tinker with that stuff. In essence, she's a pretty poor temporal agent, or at least has inefficient tools for the trade
YARN
Fleet Captain
Love the pic. It pretty much sums up what is irritating about her character. She's preachy exposition bartender person.
'Tis strange. Q is afraid of (at least averse to) Guinan and speaks to her as an equal, but the Borg basically wiped her race out? She's a bartender but she is free to interrupt Picard (at work running the ship) when the spirit moves her? Is it even plausible that she would still be tending bar on a fully militarized Enterprise? Since they were all eating/drinking the equivalent of MREs you would not think you'd need a bartender.
Well, I won't presume to get into the realism of Star Trek, at all. LOL
I have liked her character on occasion, particularly when she is flawed, like in I Borg, when Geordi has to give her a dose. In the end, I think they ended up just treating her like Troi, someone who has mysterious & undefined, superhuman abilities, but no more or less perfect that anyone else
It's actually a slap in the face to Troi's character, that they needed Guinan at all. I mean who's the real counselor on board? A Bartender? I just think it became obvious that given Picard's character, it would be unlikely that he'd ever truly heed Troi's personal advice, beyond her position, which was subordinate
In sci-fi, sometimes you need a Yoda
I have liked her character on occasion, particularly when she is flawed, like in I Borg, when Geordi has to give her a dose. In the end, I think they ended up just treating her like Troi, someone who has mysterious & undefined, superhuman abilities, but no more or less perfect that anyone else
It's actually a slap in the face to Troi's character, that they needed Guinan at all. I mean who's the real counselor on board? A Bartender? I just think it became obvious that given Picard's character, it would be unlikely that he'd ever truly heed Troi's personal advice, beyond her position, which was subordinate
In sci-fi, sometimes you need a Yoda
That's the benefit of the character, she can speak to Picard in ways no one else can, because she'd not one of his minions. She can give Will Riker a kick up the arse in BoBW too.
Troi's the counsellor, she deals with the mental health of the crew. Her role isn't as wide-ranging as giving the captain advice in the way Guinan does, and probably wouldn't feel it was her place anyway.
Probably why Picard values both of them in different ways.
Oh come on. Guinan is cool-she's like the Yoda of Star Trek. The sage character of the group whose appearance belies her true power and wisdom.
Plus Picard listens to her because she's often RIGHT. Remember her advice in Q Who not to go exploring the Borg Cube while it was dormant? Also, She helped restore the timeline in YC.
If you have a five hundred-year-old bartender/therapist with extraordinary insight into matters of time and space you ignore her because she's lacking in military protocol?
I'll take her as a counselor over Troi any day.
The way I've always seen it is that Troi and counselors will tell you 'this is what you're feeling and why' while Guinan and bartenders tend to lead you to these conclusions without telling you where you're going. It's a subtle but important distinction - people don't like being told how their feeling, but if they realize it for themselves, they're more likely to take the advice.
Correction she's not one of his bilittled trained minions.
Yeah, but I think that Troi was planned out to be the one true adviser, at first, & they eventually realized that it wasn't enough, & brought in another character. After that, it was really rare for people to confide in Troi, unless it was some kind of official therapy. Prior, it was handled in a much more relaxed way, for her character. She was allowed to make observational commentary, at any time
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