Red Squad????

[John200]

Don't you think we'd be beyond this elitist bullshit by the 24th century?

Hated the whole concept of Red Squad in Trek ,and it kind of foreshadowed what Ron Moore would do with BSG.

I think if the man had his way DS9 would have been totally like BSG.

At times it walked that edge ,and even made Star Fleet a little scary sometimes.

I like DS9 don't get me wrong ,but some moments irk me none the less.

 

[DevilEyes]

Don't you think we'd be beyond this elitist bullshit by the 24th century?

No.

 

[Farrens]

I would have to agree with Devileyes. As long as there are inequalities in human ability elite organizations will exist. Especially within educational facilities like the academy.

 

[scorpius1701]

It wasnt a bad idea, but it was ruined by every single actor they cast as a Red Squad member being absolutely terrible.

 

[RyuRoots]

Well, Valiant is basically an examination of WHY it's a horrible idea. I'd be very hard-pressed to believe that any such thing wasn't disbanded very quickly after the full report on the USS Valiant made it to Starfleet on Earth.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Whether or not it was a good idea in-universe (I'd have to say it wasn't), I think it was a fantastic one from a storytelling perspective. I thought it contributed very nicely to Homefront/Paradise Lost, then gave us a classic episode in Valiant (I know a lot of people hate this one, but I love it).

 

[TheGodBen]

Don't you think we'd be beyond this elitist bullshit by the 24th century?

I would certainly hope not. Who would my genius great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grankids be snooty over if elitism was eradicated?

Hated the whole concept of Red Squad in Trek ,and it kind of foreshadowed what Ron Moore would do with BSG.

I think if the man had his way DS9 would have been totally like BSG.

It wouldn't have been like Trials and Tribble-ations then? Or Take Me Out to the Holosuite? Our Man Bashir? Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places? In the Cards?

At times it walked that edge ,and even made Star Fleet a little scary sometimes.

That was the point.

 

[Navaros]

It wasnt a bad idea, but it was ruined by every single actor they cast as a Red Squad member being absolutely terrible.

Paul Popowich, who played Capt. Watters, is actually a very good actor, no question about it. I know that because I've seen him in other things.

As for rest, I can't tell if they are bad actors or if they were directed to be inherently annoying. I can see how they may have been directed that way. There are other cases in DS9 where an actor is clearly not supposed to be inherently annoying yet is due to terrible acting (Keiko O'Brien), and cases where an actor is supposed to be inherently annoying and hence her being that is great acting (Kai Winn).

For Valiant, I've always assumed that they were directed to be inherently annoying, and hence were good actors. But if they weren't directed that way, then yes, they are indeed terrible actors, like you said.

 

[nx1701g]

Don't you think we'd be beyond this elitist bullshit by the 24th century?

No.

It hasn't gone anywhere in the past, I doubt that it'll go anywhere in the future. There will always be elite groups.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Hated the whole concept of Red Squad in Trek ,and it kind of foreshadowed what Ron Moore would do with BSG.

I think if the man had his way DS9 would have been totally like BSG.

It wouldn't have been like Trials and Tribble-ations then? Or Take Me Out to the Holosuite? Our Man Bashir? Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places? In the Cards?

Not to mention that Red Squad was originally introduced in "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost", which were written by Ira Steven Behr and Robert Hewitt Wolfe. I think people who dislike nuBSG often blame things they dislike about DS9 on Ron Moore as well, even when he hadn't anything to do with it. I also remember a discussion from a few months ago where someone criticized "What You Leave Behind", assuming that it had been written by Moore (while it was in fact penned by Ira Steven Behr and Hans Beimler).

Other episodes where people might wrongly assume that they were written by Ronald D. Moore:
- In the Pale Moonlight (written by Michael Taylor, based on a story by Peter Allen Fields)
- Inquisition (written by Bradley Thompson & David Weddle)

Interestingly, Michael Taylor, Bradley Thompson, and David Weddle all went on to become nuBSG writers/producers. Which just proofs that it doesn't come down to Ron Moore alone. There was a whole bunch of people on the DS9 writing staff who wanted the show to be "dark". And a lot of them then started to work on nuBSG.

But as indicated above, Ira Steven Behr and Robert Hewitt Wolfe also had a tendency for more dark and gritty stuff. I guess the only person in charge of DS9 who wanted to retain a more traditional "Trekist" vision of the future was Rick Berman. So you might just as well change "Ronald D. Moore" into "Anybody but Berman" here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, Valiant is basically an examination of WHY it's a horrible idea. I'd be very hard-pressed to believe that any such thing wasn't disbanded very quickly after the full report on the USS Valiant made it to Starfleet on Earth.

The Klingons probably loved it, though. From their perspective, the Valiant crew died as heroes in glorious battle against a vastly superior foe. What Klingon wouldn't love that? They probably wrote songs about Red Squad as soon as they heard of it.

 

[StarryEyed]

Don't you think we'd be beyond this elitist bullshit by the 24th century?

No.

Human nature might not be beyond it but I suspect a massive body of evidence, collected over the centuries, would show that that kind of thing is unhealthy and self-defeating. So institutions like Star Fleet would know better than to encourage this sort of thing.

People don't need to have changed very much to make a society like we see in Star Trek a reality. We just need advancements in knowledge and education. After all, a modern human is little different from one who lived in caves 50,000 years ago. The only difference is in knowledge, education and upbringing.

So yeah, we should be beyond this elitist bullshit in the 24th century.

 

[Withers]

I think it was another angle by which they explored the idea of Starfleet being less than absolutely perfect. In that respect it was no different than the introduction of Section 31 or the decisions that Sisko would go on to make (and Archer in Enterprise.) It's expounding on the notion that, while things like hunger and the acquisition of wealth have been eradicated on Earth, the people who live there are still human beings that 20th century humans can relate to in some ways.

The idea that the whole of humanity strives only to better the whole of humanity is kind of silly. There has to be something propelling opportunists and individualistic people forward and Starfleet, being what it was, is an obvious choice for a way to prove ones worth. That there was an "elite squad" is no more out of place than having a fraternity on a college campus in 24th century or even just giving promotions and medals to people for exemplary service.


-Withers-​

 

[DevilEyes]

Don't you think we'd be beyond this elitist bullshit by the 24th century?

No.

Human nature might not be beyond it but I suspect a massive body of evidence, collected over the centuries, would show that that kind of thing is unhealthy and self-defeating. So institutions like Star Fleet would know better than to encourage this sort of thing.

People don't need to have changed very much to make a society like we see in Star Trek a reality. We just need advancements in knowledge and education. After all, a modern human is little different from one who lived in caves 50,000 years ago. The only difference is in knowledge, education and upbringing.

So yeah, we should be beyond this elitist bullshit in the 24th century.

Early TNG proved that people were not beyond elitist bullshit when they had Wesley say things like "I'm Starfleet, we don't lie."

Disregarding that kind of silliness, we're still left with the question: do you really think that people join Starfleet exclusively out of a desire to explore and contribute and better themselves, or is at least a part of the reason, at least for some people, that it may be seen as prestigious? Especially when you go on to become a legend like Kirk.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Probably. Prestige certainly is a part of it. And that's not unusual. It's human nature.

It doesn't necessarily make someone less compassionate or human just because they want recognition. And it doesn't mean Red Squad inherently has less of a right to exist simply because they are exclusive and of high achievement. Elitist they may be, but they have the right to exist as a separate group. No one is forced to join if they don't want to - quite the reverse, really. Do the Ivy League schools not have the right to exist because they're 'elitist' as compared to most other colleges? Of course not. High achievement is rewarded, and a certain amount of prestige comes with it.

Red Squad is entitled to their existence, and the rest of the cadets are entitled to look down on them (bit of reverse elitism there, in and of itself) if they wish.

 

[Nightdiamond]

You had to see the look their first officer gave Nog, and how she barely acknowledged him, though it was the first time they met.

Exclusive is one thing, but talk about anti-social....did they get that attitude from all the special privileges they received?

It reminds me of the obnoxious, obsessed scientist types from TNG and (DS9), who were in your face, almost rude to a point.


So one message from Trek is that humans in the 22-24th century have evolved out of being 'savage', but obnoxious and rude behavior is still warranted?

Great idea about the Klingons, I think the Klingons would see it exactly that way....

 

[Cyke101]

Let's also remember that we're supposed to actively dislike Red Squad anyway. After all, that's how Nog and Jake come to the conclusion that he was "a good man but a bad captain." There's nothing elitist about proving the truth or that even heroes are flawed, really.

Furthermore, I love the fact that the original draft didn't have Nog or Jake on the ship, but rather Kira. It was quickly scrapped because the writers realized that Kira would have smacked down each and every member of Red Squad for their hubris and inexperience (something I would have gladly watched). The writers wanted to keep the arrogant Red Squad but needed newbies to show it off, and by this point in the show, even Dr. Bashir had more combat experience than them.