Red Squad and the Valiant

[PhoenixIreland]

I saw a youtube clip of this episode a few minutes ago and it got me thinking.

If, after they got the scan of the secret ship, they had just gone home, would they have been legends at the academy and would the brass have been proud of them?
or would the brass still think they were nuts for going awol and not coming home when their COs were killed?
Either way I think if they came home at that night they'd have got the hero worship they clearly wanted (even though they aready had it just by being in red squad)

After involvement in a coup, a psudo-suiicide mission and the Nova Sqaud causing death of an innoccent Cadet...think starflett academy would stop it with the elite squads??

 

[All Seeing Eye]

or better yet, had the Valiant returned home could they have supplied Starfleet with enough sensor data to allow Starfleets finest to develop a 'working' weapon capable of taking out the braces? if so, when the alliance fleet went against the Dominion they could have taken out all their Dreadnaught class ships pretty easily.

 

[Timo]

The way the episode plays out, it seems "Captain" Watterson had no real legitimacy to his actions, and thus was probably afraid of ever returning home. All we have to suggest that he was entitled to command the vessel is his word, after all, and there's plenty of reason to think that he was lying. So perhaps a heroic return, but one culminating in a court martial and the end of a career; not Watterson's first choice.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[scorpius1701]

The whole episode I was wondering why Nog didnt just take command of the ship being the only real commissioned officer and outranking a bunch of cadets. By that cadet's logic, if Worf came aboard instead of Nog, the cadet would still outrank Worf.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I don't know enough about the military to answer that question. But i know enough about Nog to say, he surely didn`t want to relieve him of command.
First of all, Nog is barely more than a cadet. He only got a full rank because of the war. Otherwise he would have been only a cadet himself, and not even in his final year if I remember correctly.
Second, Nog worships Red Squad. He calls them the best of the best of the best. Who is he to question the actions of his idols. He is naive to think they can't be wrong, but he does anyway.

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Also, most of those cadets were at the Academy with Nog, (in fact the helmsman, Riley Shepard, appeared in either Homefront or Paradise Lost) and they were more senior to him while there. So there's no reason to believe they would have taken him seriously, even if he had been wearing Captain's pips.

Also, questions of rank aside, the crew was loyal to Watterson. If Nog had tried to pull rank, he would probably have been tossed in the brig like Jake was.

 

[scorpius1701]

The episode as written has Nog tentatively ask Watterson if he is the captain, Watterston replies that yes he is because he was given some kind of field rank thing while the captain was dying. I accept that he is in charge as long as a real officer is not on board but as soon as Nog sets foot on the ship, regardless of how he earned his comission, he is a real officer while Watterston is not. Again, by that logic if Worf or even Commander Riker comes aboard, Watterston would still be in chrage. Baloney. I thought this episode was just a manufactured episode where everyone but Jake winds up looking STUPID. Its ok to learn something from a mistake, but you dont have to make a character like Nog look like a blind fool while he does it. And assuming they do not accept Nog's authority, at least he TRIED and they should all be up on charges when they get home anyway, something that should have happened to Riley Shepard by the way.

 

[Navaros]

I actually liked how they made Nog look stupid because it was a nice throwback to the episode of TNG where Riker explained how the Academy brainwashes people to have blind loyalty to their Captain. Looks like that brainwashing was still going on by Nog's time in the Academy. Nog was stupid in that episode partially due to that brainwashing IMO.

I agree though that they needed to put some comment in the episode by Nog about taking command. Either have him tell Jake 1 on 1 that he could take command, but he just doesn't want to. Or have him suggest it to Watters and then Watters "talks him out of it" and Nog agrees, again partially due to the brainwashing he got at the Academy. To simply pretend that it didn't even occur to Nog to take command, as this episode does, is bad writing.

 

[scorpius1701]

I actually liked how they made Nog look stupid because it was a nice throwback to the episode of TNG where Riker explained how the Academy brainwashes people to have blind loyalty to their Captain. Looks like that brainwashing was still going on by Nog's time in the Academy. Nog was stupid in that episode partially due to that brainwashing IMO.

I agree though that they needed to put some comment in the episode by Nog about taking command. Either have him tell Jake 1 on 1 that he could take command, but he just doesn't want to. Or have him suggest it to Watters and then Watters "talks him out of it" and Nog agrees, again partially due to the brainwashing he got at the Academy. To simply pretend that it didn't even occur to Nog to take command, as this episode does, is bad writing.

Agreed. The episode takes it completely out of the equation by Watters saying that regulations leave him in command even after a real comissioned officer steps on board. It's been established in ST II and a load of other ones that the senior officer on board assumes command in a battle situation. I guess my problem with this episode is it so easily could have been resolved by just turning around. All the jeopardy was manufactured and fake. And those cadet actors were really really awful.

 

[chancellorjake]

And those cadet actors were really really awful.

Especially, Courtney Peldon.
At least, she was actually wearing clothes in this episode. Unlike real life.

 

[Huntingdon]

Agreed. The episode takes it completely out of the equation by Watters saying that regulations leave him in command even after a real comissioned officer steps on board. It's been established in ST II and a load of other ones that the senior officer on board assumes command in a battle situation.

The Arsenal of Freedom, however, shows that the Captain appointed representative can actually retain command even when more senior officers are present. As this is in a closer time-period it may have more relevance to Valiant.

Doesn't make a lot of sense structurally in this episode. It's the fact that Nog new red Squad as the elite that seems to have had more tod o with it. WHat the episode needed was him at least questionning the option of taking command.

 

[Timo]

...Or then some subtext about him being too timid to do that, even if he knew it was his duty.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[starburst]

I would hope that if someone like Worf or Riker had come aboard they would have seen the sence to give them the chair as they had far more experience than the whole ship of cadets put together, Riker fought the Borg for cryin out loud.

I can imagin in their delduded minds they would have still thought their field commissioned chain of command would mean Watters would still be in charge, but again with Riker being the XO of the federation flagship would the Valiant XO stand asside?

More of an interesting question, what if it had been Picard or Sisko (or any other Starfleet Captain) on that Runabout.

 

[Navaros]

And those cadet actors were really really awful.

Paul Popowich is a really good actor.

I don't know how to judge the others. I have a hunch that they were directed to be annoying, and if that is the case, then it's not bad acting.

 

[Timo]

More of an interesting question, what if it had been Picard or Sisko (or any other Starfleet Captain) on that Runabout.

The setup really wasn't about Starfleet regulations or way of life - it was a pure Lord of the Flies situation, with the rules flying out of the airlock. Watterson or his crew weren't thinking in terms of What Would Picard Do, but more in terms of How To Make This Good Thing Last.

If Picard or Sisko came aboard, perhaps slightly injured, I could see Watterson conspiring to keep him locked up in sickbay under heavy sedation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gojirob]

There are some real errors in judgment on the part of everyone. I think Jake may have unwittingly done Watters a favor by giving the crew a hesitant enemy to rally against.

For myself, I'd surely like to think that Starfleet stopped with the super-cadet thing. I once went after the post-Valiant events in a fic (needs revising) but I'd buy a pro-novel that made a stab at all this as well. I think Nog was in for another disappointment, though. His urging that Jake 'just tell the truth' about what happened I found a little insulting. Jake has faults, but sugar-coating or bending the truth didn't seem to be among them, as far as I ever saw. If the truth be told, then Jake's article would not be very kind to Red Squad at all.

 

[SeanMcC]

Jeez! Those blind rookies really bit off more than they could chew

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Had those cadets gone home in the FIRST place, odds are many of them would have been breveted to Ensign or even a Lieutenant grade and been assigned somewhere accordingly. I think Nog saw this too, and thus just stuck to his own fantasy of serving "in" Red Squad by justifying that Red Squad's being "the best" would have ended them up there anyway.

At the end of the show, Nog saw himself reduced in field rank to Ensign again, suggesting that Watters had no real authority after all. How would that work under "real" wartime condition, anyway? Would a cadet from West Point, breveted to skipper a destroyer in WWII following the death of her captain, have the authority to promote others permanently? It doesn't really make sense either way.

Mark

 

[Mr. Fergy]

"Oh, the folly of youth." 'Nuff said.

BTW: Who else hates the Valiant's XO?

 

[Anthony Sabre]

In retrospect this story was handled wrong. The story shouldn't have included Jake or Nog in it. Instead the story begins with the Defiant picking up an escape pod from the Valiant. The survivor(s) then tell the story of the Valiant and how it all went wrong.

Hind sight is 20/20 of course.