Reconciling Ranks within different Starfleet Departments.

[Shamrock Holmes]

Appologies for another thread of this type, but given that several other recurring threads have been picked up lately I thought I'd share some of my recent thoughts.

For the purposes of this discussion, I am assuming that the overall day-to-day business is run by the Commander, Starfleet (nominally a "six-star" under modern terms or O13). All Flag or General Officers wear Gold Insignia.

Below that are four Deputy Commanders - Starfleet Reserves (2-in-C to the Commander, "five star" O12) and three Service Departments (also "five stars"):

Starfleet Exploratory Division (SED, combines UESF plus AG space assets): Primary operator of front-line Starfleet Vessels and Bases.
Starfleet Operational Support Services (OSS, combines TSA, ACSRC & VSC): Supervises all logistical, legal and scientific activities.
Starfleet Ground Forces (SGF, combines MACOs and AG ground assests): Includes Boarding Teams, pre-First Contact observation teams, cultural assistance teams, and Special Operations military reconnaisance/direct action units.

Below this the structure runs:

O11 Admiral or General ("four stars"): Agency Directors and (wartime only) Theatre or Numbered Fleet Commanders.
O10 Vice Admiral or Lieutenant General ("three stars"): Agency Deputy Directors, Minor Fleet or Ground Forces Group Commanders.
O9 or 08 Rear Admiral (either) or Major/Brigadier General ("two or one star"): Task Force Commanders, Colonial GF Division or Infantry Brigade Commanders and Specialist Officers covering Regions or Sectors (esp JAG, Security or Intelligence).

Next are the Commissioned Officers, who wear Silver Insignia. First pip/stripe is Department Colour and worn only on Service and Dress Jackets, shirts are Department Colour and have one less (no stripe/pip below LTJG/2LT):

O7 Fleet Captain or Brigadier (four pips or stripes): Command Dreadnought/Explorer-type Starships, embarked Combined Brigades and major Starbases and ground facilities. Some very experienced Specialist Officers may also be promoted to this level. (For example Jean-Luc Picard, Ben Sisko during the DW, Phillipa Louvois)
O6 Captain or Colonel (3 1/2 pips or striples): Command Cruiser-type Starships, also Ground Forces Brigade Staff and experienced Specialist Officers and some Starbases and ground facilities. (examples Kirk, Spock and Janeway).
O5 Commander or Lieutenant Colonel (three pips or stripes): Command Frigate or Escort-Type Starships and most OSS Vessels. Also act as XO/Department Heads on larger starships, bases and Battalion Commanders.
O4 Lieutenant Commander or Major (2 1/2 pips or stripes): Act as XO/Department Heads on starships, bases and command GF companies or minor OSS vessels.
O3 Lieutenant (Two pips or stripes): Also act as XO/Department Heads or Officers on most starships, bases and command GF Companies.
O2 or O1 Lieutenant JG/Ensign or 2nd Lieutenant/Acting Lieutenant (1 1/2 or 1 stripe): Also act as Department Heads or Officers on most starships, bases and command GF Platoons.
OD Acting Ensign/Midshipman (1/2 stripe): Senior Officer Trainees (except Ground Forces) undertaking Field Assignments. Non-substantive rank, delegated authority only.
C1-4 Cadet: Officer Trainees attending Starfleet Academy. Non-substantive rank, delegated authority only over other Cadets.

Last are the Non-Commissioned and Enlisted Personnel:

Non-Commissioned Ranks (wearing bronze are):

E11 Executive Command Master Chief of Starfleet (XCMCSF): Usually ex-SED, acts as SEA to the Commander, Starfleet and Federation Senior Officals. Four pips or stripes + unique Insignia.
E10 Executive CMC or Executive Command Sergeant Major: SEA to the Deputy Commanders. Four pips or striples.
E9/E9a Fleet or Force CMC or Group Command Sergeant Major: SEA to Agency Heads and Deputies, Fleet and GF Group Commanders (O8+). 3 1/2 pips or stripes, Command Badge.
E6a-E8a Command Master Chief to Chief or Command Chief Master Sergeant to First Sergeant: Advisor to Commanding Officers (O5 to O7). Three, 2 1/2 or Two Pips or Stripes, SED Command Badge.
E6-E8 Specialist Master Chief to Chief or Chief Master Sergeant to Master Sergeant: As act as Advisor to Department Heads and Specialist Officers. Also assigned as Senior Training Instructors, particularly at the enlisted Technical and Specialist Academies, and Assistant Platoon Leaders in Ground Forces and SpecOps. Three, 2 1/2 or Two Pips or Stripes, Other Badges.
E5 Specialist 1st Class or Sergeant: Advisor to Department Heads and Officers, may also act as Shift or Section Leaders and embarked Training Instructors. 1 1/2 pips or Stripes, Other Badges.
E4 Specialist 2nd Class or Corporal: Shift/Team Leaders and Trainers. Depending on manpower/mission parameters may also act as Independent Specialist/Technicans. 1 pip or Stripe, Other Badges.
E3a Lance Corporal: Acting rank appointable in Ground Forces. 1/2 pip or stripe. Other Badges.
E3 Crewman 1st Class or Private First Class: First Tour Qualifed Technical or Specialist. No Stripe. Other Badges.
E2 Crewman or Private: Most junior substantive rank. Held while undertaking familiarisation training during First Tour, so not authorised to work alone. No Stripe. Wears Fleet Uniform with Plain Bronze Badge.
E1 Recruit: Non-Substantive/Tempory Rank, held during Basic or Technical/Specialist School. Wears Training Uniform with Black Badge.

As with Officers the first pip/stripe is Department Colour and worn only on Service and Dress Jackets, shirts are Department Colour and have one less (no stripe/pip below Specialist 2nd Class).

Specialist (or Technician) is a generic placeholder (Petty Officer may be used if you prefer) and would be replaced by the enlisted (wo)man's "rating" were known.

The above is a hybrid of existing Starfleet ranks with extrapolated American or British/Commonwealth ranks to fill in the gaps so that the roles and insignia mostly line-up across the levels which IMO they don't based on an "as is" system based on the USN and USMC or Army?

 

[Tenacity]

Starfleet NCO's would likely be petty officers, and not corporals or sergeants.

"Acting ensign" (my interpretation) was a completely made up thing on Picard's part.

I might be wrong, but I don't think midshipman (as a rank) was ever used.

No "six star" Admirals, top position more likely a "four star" with seniority.

Picard with four pips was a captain, not a fleet captain.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet NCO's would likely be petty officers, and not corporals or sergeants.

Regular Starfleet enlisted (Exploratory and most Operational Support and Reserves per above) have been described as Petty Officers, Technicians or Specialists. IMO, that basically the same thing, just different roles (Engineering, Medical or Armory would be Technicians, Yeoman or pilots would be Specialists, either could be refered to as Petty Officer). The Corporal, Sergeants etc ranks would used in the Ground Forces (and to a limited extent in OSS and Reserves).

"Acting ensign" (my interpretation) was a completely made up thing on Picard's part.

I might be wrong, but I don't think midshipman (as a rank) was ever used.

The existence of "provisional ranks" on Voyager would seem argue against the idea that "Acting Ensign" was made-up by Picard. Although, I think the suggestion that "acting" or "provisional" ranks don't transfer to other assigments has more basis, as Wesley still attended the Academy even after being commisioned as (Full) Ensign.

Midshipman was used occassionally through TOS, the last use IIRC was Midshipman First Class Peter Preston in TWOK. I'm in two minds about continuing using it myself but I thought I'd throw it in anyway.

No "six star" Admirals, top position more likely a "four star" with seniority.

Picard with four pips was a captain, not a fleet captain.

Evidence for the number of different flag officer ranks varies according to era but the Monster Maroons at least had a total of six flag ranks, with zero, one, two, three, four or five lozenges on the Flag Officers sleeve band. At the time, referred to as Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, Admiral, Fleet Admiral and Commander-in-Chief/Commander, Starfleet, but IMO modernising it to Rear Admiral (lower), Rear Admiral (upper), Vice Admiral, Admiral, Grand/Branch Admiral and Commander, Starfleet seems reasonable?

Given that the two known Fleet Captains, Pike and Garth, were mostly refered to as Captain, I don't think we can prove that Picard wasn't a Fleet Captain. I think it would make a lot of sense that given the greater scope of his role and much greater seniority than Janeway that he was a higher rank (he's roughly a contemporary of her father).

 

[Tenacity]

I don't think we can prove that Picard wasn't a Fleet Captain

Well for one he was never referred to as such.

and Commander, Starfleet

Commander Starfleet was a position, not a rank.

The existence of "provisional ranks" on Voyager would seem argue against the idea that "Acting Ensign" was made-up by Picard.

Wesley wasn't a "provisional ensign." Acting ensign was a made up thing by Picard.

 

[Timo]

"We don't know" goes with most things up there, but here's a few remarks.

We hear both Cadet and Midshipman being used, but never for the same person (that is, Kirk was a Cadet as per ST2:TWoK and a Midshipman as per "Court Martial", but not necessarily at the same time). They could be functionally different rungs on the rank ladder, then. Or just naming conventions for students in classroom or simulator (Cadet) and aboard a ship (Midshipman).

Garth was never a Fleet Captain on screen. What our heroes called him was a Starship fleet Captain, that is, a Captain in the Starship fleet. That's obviously the same thing Kirk was, but whether it's a separate rank from Captain, we don't know. Kirk wore 2½ braid, while Picard doesn't wear 3½ pips - perhaps back in Kirk's time there did exist a 3-braid rank for "full" Captain, and in Picard's time a 3½ pip rank for "lesser" Captain. But if we're going to use Garth as a yardstick against advice, then this putative "Fleet Captain" thing is the lesser rank, not the full one, and Kirk's it, too.

Commander Starfleet or CinC had no special rank pin: the people with this status wore the five-star pin whose proper designation is unknown (Grand Admiral? "Fleet Admiral" is already taken, for the position of commanding a fleet at two-star or three-star rank, as seen in TNG and DS9), even if their uniforms were more decorative otherwise.

As for the lozenges, those didn't correspond to rank in any discernible way for our main heroes. They might refer to decorations earned; although the original plan was for them to reflect service years, the continuity folks never managed to uphold this.

As for ground forces, we saw "The Siege of AR-558" and we heard ground forces commanded by navy ranks (a Captain above a Commander). It's a bit unlikely we'll ever get a better chance at seeing UFP ground forces in action, so for the time being, that's "it" - UFP infantry uses naval designations and is part of Starfleet. And there's a spook at Vice Admiral rank named Cornell West.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Well for one he was never referred to as such.

In the RW, Picard would have been at least a Vice Admiral by TNG or separated from the Service due to failure to advance. The idea that he is a more senior form of Captain that COs of smaller vessels seems like a sensible comprimise to me? Why do you have problem with that?

Commander Starfleet was a position, not a rank.

I can't see any advantage in assuming this. Looking at the current US military structure, there is more than enough scope for five-star and six-star positions. For instance, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, his Vice Chairman and the Unifed Combatant Commanders (protected exceptions), plus the Service Chiefs and at least some of their deputies are all four-stars in reality. Realistically, the "protected" category would be five-stars if this wasn't polictically and financially unpalatable (Unlike most First World militaries, the US has only appointed five-stars during war) and the much greater scale that Starfleet operates on would only magnify this.

Wesley wasn't a "provisional ensign." Acting ensign was a made up thing by Picard.

Based on?:

acting (not comparable)

1. Temporarily assuming the duties or authority of another person when they are unable to do their job.
   The Acting Minister must sign Executive Council documents in a Minister's absence.
   Acting President of the United States is a temporary office in the government of the United States.

provisional (not comparable)

1. Temporary, but with the intention of eventually becoming permanent or being replaced by a permanent equivalent.
   

Sounds like they would basically be the same thing. Though given Wesley's later attendence at the Academy, I could still his "Full" Ensign rank actually being Provisional Ensign rather than Permenant/Substantive Ensign as implied by dialogue in the episode.

This would be consistent with current US policy on "frocking" NCOs to officers:

The promotion of an enlisted person or non-commissioned officer to commissioned officer rank as a reward for displaying leadership and bravery is referred to as a direct appointment rather than a brevet. It temporarily grants the rank of 1st lieutenant. The holder must then attend Officer Candidate School in order to keep the commission. They must also have or acquire a four-year college degree if they wish to be promoted to the rank of captain or above.

Which doesn't match Picard's dialogue exactly:

PICARD: I'm just thinking that I'm saying goodbye to you as you are today.
WESLEY: But I thought you said I wasn't going to be able to go?
PICARD: The Academy must make you wait, that's true. But, when I review your service to this ship, your crewmates, I cannot in all conscience make you wait for the Academy. You see, Wesley, in my eyes you're an acting ensign in title only. I hereby grant you field promotion to full Ensign, with all the commensurate responsibilities and privileges of that rank. Congratulations. You're dismissed.

But I think it has a similar enough feel to it?

 

[Timo]

Morrow's rank pin:

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.ne...ision/latest?cb=20120316203510&path-prefix=en

Cartwright's rank pin:

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.ne...ision/latest?cb=20120316190334&path-prefix=en

The CinC's rank pin:

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.ne...ision/latest?cb=20160325231725&path-prefix=en

What it was in stage reality:

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.ne...ision/latest?cb=20170417201305&path-prefix=en

None of the people wearing this pin were ever called Fleet Admirals (the forgotten and contradicted designation for the pin in Fletcher's original scheme). They were called all sorts of things onscreen and backstage: Commander Starfleet, The Cinc, Admiral, Chief of Staff, Bill, Bob... The positions shouldn't be considered synonyms just because the rank of the person holding the position is the same. And conversely, we shouldn't be inventing new ranks just because we have multiple positions to fill.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

No "six star" Admirals, top position more likely a "four star" with seniority.

The head of Starfleet in TNG, Admiral Shanthi is always identified as Fleet Admiral, which would imply a five star rank, even though in her one appearance, she wore the three boxed pips of a Vice Admiral, as did Fleet Admiral Brackett in Unification. Admirals Morrow, Bill, and Bob all identified as heads of Starfleet do wear the insignia that properly corresponds to Fleet Admiral, at least according to Memory Alpha. Meanwhile in STID Admiral Marcus (again identified as the head of Starfleet) does have five pins on his shoulders making it clear his is a five star rank.

O7 Fleet Captain or Brigadier (four pips or stripes): Command Dreadnought/Explorer-type Starships, embarked Combined Brigades and major Starbases and ground facilities. Some very experienced Specialist Officers may also be promoted to this level. (For example Jean-Luc Picard, Ben Sisko during the DW, Phillipa Louvois)
O6 Captain or Colonel (3 1/2 pips or striples): Command Cruiser-type Starships, also Ground Forces Brigade Staff and experienced Specialist Officers and some Starbases and ground facilities. (examples Kirk, Spock and Janeway).

This is highly speculative and in no way matches on screen canon. The O7 rank we know is Commodore or later Rear Admiral, Lower Half. It's represented by one boxed pip and is not the rank held by Picard, Sisko or Louvois. Likewise O6 Captain is represented by 4 pips, which is exactly how many Janeway had on her uniform.

 

[Ithekro]

In the last two centuries the US Navy has only gone up to Five Star Admirals during World War II as a wartime rank. The only other rank that is, in theory, above that was "Admiral of the Navy" which was a rank given to Admiral George Dewey for his services from the American Civil War to the Spanish-American. He was a Commodore until the aftermath of the Battle of Manila Bay. He was promoted to Rear Admiral soon after, then full Admiral, and finally "Admiral of the Navy" retroactively to 1899. But this is the only rank that even comes close to being the "sixth star Admiral". That the Five Star Fleet Admiral didn't exist until about thirty years after Dewey died, makes that odder. The Navy's positon is that "Admiral Of the Navy " is senior to a Fleet Admiral, but not a sixth star rank. And only Dewey ever had this rank.

The missing Starfleet rank in the TNG era is 3 and a half pips. It goes from Commander (three pips) to Captain (four pips), while Lt. Commander is two and a half pips. There are half steps all the way up, but not at that one spot., and not in the Flag ranks.

 

[Timo]

The head of Starfleet in TNG, Admiral Shanthi

Who?

The lass with the three pips in "Redemption" is called "Fleet Admiral" but never "the head of Starfleet". She's to be found at a random Starbase which is not identified as a high-up HQ. And while Picard can "convince Starfleet Command" through her, this does not mean she is Starfleet Command personified.

We don't need to invent reasons for why a person with just three pips would command the whole kit and kaboodle while four-pippers no doubt simultaneously exist and five-pippers might be lurking behind important corners. And we don't even have to invent a change in the meaning of "Fleet Admiral" - it may always have meant Admiral in command of a Fleet, as no competing definition is ever offered in Star Trek (of which Memory Alpha is not a canon component).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

"We don't know" goes with most things up there, but here's a few remarks.

We hear both Cadet and Midshipman being used, but never for the same person (that is, Kirk was a Cadet as per ST2:TWoK and a Midshipman as per "Court Martial", but not necessarily at the same time). They could be functionally different rungs on the rank ladder, then. Or just naming conventions for students in classroom or simulator (Cadet) and aboard a ship (Midshipman).

That more-or-less makes sense. It may have to do with whether they have been delegated authority. Nog, who was working under Chief O'Brien is a cadet, but Preston - who we might imagine is acting as a Team Leader would be a Midshipman?

Garth was never a Fleet Captain on screen. What our heroes called him was a Starship fleet Captain, that is, a Captain in the Starship fleet. That's obviously the same thing Kirk was, but whether it's a separate rank from Captain, we don't know. Kirk wore 2½ braid, while Picard doesn't wear 3½ pips - perhaps back in Kirk's time there did exist a 3-braid rank for "full" Captain, and in Picard's time a 3½ pip rank for "lesser" Captain. But if we're going to use Garth as a yardstick against advice, then this putative "Fleet Captain" thing is the lesser rank, not the full one, and Kirk's it, too.

While "Fleet Captain" wasn't specifically a promotion from Starship (fleet) Captain in Garth's case, it was in Pike's:

The Menagerie The [TOS].
We're in "Mendez' office"
MENDEZ: You don't know? You actually don't know what's happened to Captain Pike? There's been subspace chatter about it for months. I'm sorry to have to be the one to show you. He's upstairs in the medical section.
[now in "Intensive Care Area"]
MENDEZ: You ever met Chris Pike?
KIRK: When he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
MENDEZ: About your age. Big, handsome man, vital, active.
KIRK: I took over the Enterprise from him. Spock served with him for several years.

It may also be equivalent to the TNG era rank described as Deputy Director:

O7 Deputy Director or (Senior) Captain (four pips over bar): Senior HQ representives/investigators may be promoted to his rank to give them authority over starship captains and base commanders. (For example Luthor Sloan's IA cover identity).



[URL='http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16.htm']

As for ground forces, we saw "The Siege of AR-558" and we heard ground forces commanded by navy ranks (a Captain above a Commander). It's a bit unlikely we'll ever get a better chance at seeing UFP ground forces in action, so for the time being, that's "it" - UFP infantry uses naval designations and is part of Starfleet. And there's a spook at Vice Admiral rank named Cornell West.

[/URL]
I can accept that "The Seige of AR-558" indicates that ground defence or direct action units exist within Starfleet proper (analogus to USN SEALs, USCG DOGs or the UK's RAF Regiment) where relatively small units are commanded by field grade officers (this is consistent with SOP in special operations). References through the Dominion War (and in Yesterday's Enterprise) to thousands of troops being carried on starships/transports suggests a larger dedicated infantry units, though if you'd prefer that the bulk are Reserves rather than Starfleet Ground Forces (tho would then be DEVGRU or DOG-esque) would make sense.

In the last two centuries the US Navy has only gone up to Five Star Admirals during World War II as a wartime rank. The only other rank that is, in theory, above that was "Admiral of the Navy" which was a rank given to Admiral George Dewey for his services from the American Civil War to the Spanish-American. He was a Commodore until the aftermath of the Battle of Manila Bay. He was promoted to Rear Admiral soon after, then full Admiral, and finally "Admiral of the Navy" retroactively to 1899. But this is the only rank that even comes close to being the "sixth star Admiral". That the Five Star Fleet Admiral didn't exist until about thirty years after Dewey died, makes that odder. The Navy's positon is that "Admiral Of the Navy " is senior to a Fleet Admiral, but not a sixth star rank. And only Dewey ever had this rank.

I mentioned that, however this is mostly political and given that the Commander, Starfleet/Commander-in-Chief et al is responsible for (probably) hundreds of millions if not billions of personnel, rather than the "mere" two million that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs has oversight over.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Wormhole]

Who?

The lass with the three pips in "Redemption" is called "Fleet Admiral" but never "the head of Starfleet". She's to be found at a random Starbase which is not identified as a high-up HQ. And while Picard can "convince Starfleet Command" through her, this does not mean she is Starfleet Command personified.

She is identified as the head of Starfleet in the shooting script:

PICARD and RIKER are seated across the table from FLEET
ADMIRAL SHANTHI and a N.D. STARFLEET ADMIRAL. Shanthi
is the head of Starfleet, and is a woman of African
descent in her late fifties with an almost regal
bearing. She is listening to Picard while the N.D.
Admiral looks on with disapproval.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

While not precisely the same thing, Shanthi may have been Chief of Starfleet Operations (as Kirk was during TMP), that would be consistent with her rank. Even then, her presence away from HQ is odd.

 

[Avro Arrow]

The O7 rank we know is Commodore or later Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

To the best of my recollection, "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" has never once been uttered in dialogue, or appeared on any display graphic, in any instance of Trek, ever.

My understanding is that the US is the only country in the world who uses the Rear Admiral, Lower Half rank. There is no guarantee it was ever similarly adopted by Starfleet.

As far as I understand it, the people who assume Starfleet uses this rank base it on two things:

1. Gregory Quinn and Mark Jameson were identified as admirals, and had a rank indicator of some triangle device, which later was shown with pips under it to indicate higher admiral ranks. However, it could just as easily be that Quinn and Jameson were regular Rear Admirals, (and Savar was a Vice Admiral, and Aaron was a full Admiral) and Commodores used some other, unseen, rank device.

2. In BTS material, the Okudas frequently express their dislike of the rank "Commodore" (for some reason), and state that this rank no longer exists. But even if we speculate that the first flag rank is now some grade of admiral, rather than commodore, there is nothing to indicate it is the clunky sounding "Rear Admiral, Lower Half", rather than something else.

After they went to the boxed-pip system, we never saw a single boxed pip, so we don't know what they would have called such a character. But interestingly, apparently the same episode that gave us Savar and Aaron, also had the Commodore rank featured a few times on those mission orders that Data reviewed, implying that the rank was still in use in 2364.

 

[Ithekro]

Some services skip the one-star flag ranks entirely. France for example stars their admirals off at two stars.

 

[The Wormhole]

After they went to the boxed-pip system, we never saw a single boxed pip,

Not in the 24th century, but in Enterprise, which did feature very similar insignia, we did see the single-pipped flag rank with Commodore Forrest in First Flight.

My understanding is that the US is the only country in the world who uses the Rear Admiral, Lower Half rank. There is no guarantee it was ever similarly adopted by Starfleet.

Except when you get down to it Starfleet is the US Navy in space. And before this turns into a Starfleet is/isn't military argument that can derail this thread and force us all to vomit all over our keyboards, if anyone can name any other service in the world (military or civilian) which uses USS for its ship names, I will retract the comment.

But anyway, yeah, as the US Navy in space it makes sense they do thing like the US Navy does, like eliminating the Commodore rank and replacing it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

1. Gregory Quinn and Mark Jameson were identified as admirals, and had a rank indicator of some triangle device, which later was shown with pips under it to indicate higher admiral ranks. However, it could just as easily be that Quinn and Jameson were regular Rear Admirals, (and Savar was a Vice Admiral, and Aaron was a full Admiral) and Commodores used some other, unseen, rank device.

Possibly Commodore (rather than Fleet Captain or Deputy Director, which would then be titles) is the substantive rank designated by:

This might account for why we've rarely seen the above.

 

[Timo]

While "Fleet Captain" wasn't specifically a promotion from Starship (fleet) Captain in Garth's case, it was in Pike's:

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16.htm

And debate rages as to whether this would be higher or lower than Kirk's TOS rank, or perhaps the exact same. Certainly the inherent ambiguity in the word "Captain" would warrant a special way of addressing the rank when one doesn't want to address the position and vice versa. It's just not necessary to believe in a difference between Captain and Fleet Captain, against the evidence of a rank system that is 100% identical with USN precedent otherwise (except for the unvoiced parts, on which we can freely speculate).

She is identified as the head of Starfleet in the shooting script:

Happily, scripts aren't part of the Star Trek universe, or we'd have to believe in things like Field Colonels or Thaddeus Okona having "the look of a hero, the twinkle in the steely blue eyes softening the rugged handsomeness".

It just doesn't appear worth the effort to bring in extraneous material to support such an unlikely idea. How could the Ultimate Head Honcho be at that particular starbase, and wearing such low rank? Why would Picard need to access such a person when any flag-ranking portal to SF Command should do?

But anyway, yeah, as the US Navy in space it makes sense they do thing like the US Navy does, like eliminating the Commodore rank and replacing it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

But we know Starfleet didn't to that - they reinstated Commodore so that it is very much a thing in the future, throughout the 2260s at the very least. So the one thing we can completely rule out is them thinking the same way as the USN once did.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Commander Starfleet was a position, not a rank.

I can't see any advantage in assuming this. Looking at the current US military structure, there is more than enough scope for five-star and six-star positions. For instance, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, his Vice Chairman and the Unifed Combatant Commanders (protected exceptions), plus the Service Chiefs and at least some of their deputies are all four-stars in reality.

I don't think it's at all likely that a higher rank would not have the word "admiral" in its title. Especially since the rank of "commander" is below the lowest flag ranks.

As for the need for higher levels in Starfleet, maybe, but Kirk as a rear admiral seemed to only be a level or two down from Nogura, Starfleet's top dog.

Looking at the current US military structure, there is more than enough scope for five-star and six-star positions. For instance, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, his Vice Chairman and the Unifed Combatant Commanders (protected exceptions), plus the Service Chiefs and at least some of their deputies are all four-stars in reality.

I don't really see it. At the end of WW2 there were about 12 million people in the US armed forces, with seven five-star and 25 four-star officers. That's one four-star for every ≈480,000 personnel, and one five-star per ≈1.7 million. Today there are about 1.3 million total and 40 four-stars, one for every ≈32,000 personnel. It seems like there is plenty of room for the four-star officers to manage that force without the addition of two higher grades.

The promotion of an enlisted person or non-commissioned officer to commissioned officer rank as a reward for displaying leadership and bravery is referred to as a direct appointment rather than a brevet.

I don't know where that comes from. A direct appointment or direct commission is usually for highly skilled civilians (physicians, engineers, lawyers etc.) whose expertise is needed by the service and can be put to use with a minimum of military training.

Field commissions or battlefield commissions are usually temporary promotions for enlisted personnel in wartime, when a lot of vacancies tend to open up through casualties. This may technically be the same as a direct appointment but the terminology is usually kept distinct, because one is coming from outside the armed forces and the other from within.

He was promoted to Rear Admiral soon after, then full Admiral, and finally "Admiral of the Navy" retroactively to 1899.

Admiral of the Navy was the same as a four-star admiral from 1866 to around 1913. About that time, Congress and the Navy Department began to seriously consider three-star and additional four-star grades for the peacetime service. The 1913 Uniform Regulations introduced insignia for vice admirals and admirals in addition to Admirals of the Navy, even though the grades were not approved by Congress till 1915.

From US Navy Regulations 1909:

And 1915:

The missing Starfleet rank in the TNG era is 3 and a half pips. It goes from Commander (three pips) to Captain (four pips), while Lt. Commander is two and a half pips. There are half steps all the way up, but not at that one spot., and not in the Flag ranks.

That's because someone just lifted the USN system of rank stripes and converted them to pips. And the US in turn just modified the RN's 1870-ish stripes, which were simply 4, 3, 2 and 1 for captain, commander, lieutenant and sub-lieutenant. The British didn't have a rank of lieutenant commander till just before WW1, and have never had a commissioned rank below sub-lieutenant.

Some services skip the one-star flag ranks entirely. France for example stars their admirals off at two stars.

That's true, but it's equivalent to US and UK one-star.

But anyway, yeah, as the US Navy in space it makes sense they do thing like the US Navy does, like eliminating the Commodore rank and replacing it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

But RAdm (LH) had already long replaced commodore when TOS was being made, and they still went with commodore. So it seems odd that what the US did in 1899 would be the rationale for what Starfleet did with the commodore rank.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That's true, but it's equivalent to US and UK one-star.

Actually, UK "one star" ranks - though by NATO protocol considered equivalent to OF-6 brigadier generals/rear admiral lower half - they are regards as OF-5a ("Senior Colonel"/"Captain") with the British Armed Forces (they fly pennets rather than full Command Flags).

I don't really see it. At the end of WW2 there were about 12 million people in the US armed forces, with seven five-star and 25 four-star officers. That's one four-star for every ≈480,000 personnel, and one five-star per ≈1.7 million. Today there are about 1.3 million total and 40 four-stars, one for every ≈32,000 personnel. It seems like there is plenty of room for the four-star officers to manage that force without the addition of two higher grades.

Well, I would argue that your own math suggests that there should at least one 5-star officer (1.3 million is a lot closer to 1.7 million than it is 480k), I'd also suggest that your calculations suggest that some of the current 4-star should be 3-stars instead. For instance, it suggests that the USMC should have 1 four-star at most (based on WWII ratios) but they have a minimum of two (The CMC and the ACMC) and can have several more if the JCS Chair or Vice Chair are Marines, or if any of the Unifed Combatant Commanders are Marines (probably rare, but does presumably happen).

I'd also say that 12 million is very conservation figure for the amount of personnel in Starfleet. During the Dominion War, we had this snippet:

BASHIR: If we fight, there will be over nine hundred billion casualties. If we surrender, no one dies. Either way we're in for five generations of Dominion rule. Eventually a rebellion will form, centring on Earth. It'll spread, and within another generation, they'll succeed in conquering the Dominion. The Alpha Quadrant will unite and a new, stronger Federation will rule for thousands of years. Since we can't win this war, why don't we save as many lives as we can? I know it's difficult to accept.

It's reasonable to assume that this are Federation (and Klingon causalties?) and that this represents no more than... half?.... of the total population given that they are able to grow to "Dominion beating" size within five generations. So total population is between 1 and 2 trillion for the UFP.

Based on US numbers, even if we disregard the Army and Air Force (on the basis of no canon of an equivalent), the naval forces and non-military uniformed services still give us about 0.2% of population, which for the UFP would run to between 2.3 billion and 5 billion personnel. At current ratios that would mean between 4 and 5 thousand 4-stars (at 1 per 0.5 million) or over a thousand 5-stars (at 1 per 1.7 million). Sounds like they - if anything - need more levels than I estimated.