Reading preferences (cont'd. from Thirteenth Order thread)

[TerriO]

Better than alot of Pocket Books' TrekLit I've read.

I triple-dog dare you to have the nerve to say that in TrekLit.

Thor Damar wrote some aficionadofic yes? Never got round to his stories

"Fanfic". Say it with me. "Fanfic."

It's the name of this forum. "Fan Fiction".

It's a legitimate term. "Aficionadofic" is not the proper term what we do here. Unless you're intentionally trying to sound superior to everyone else, perhaps?

Sorry for the sidetrack, Nerys. I don't mean to step on Kathy's toes in any way, but I felt a couple of things have long since needed to be addressed. We now return you to your original thread, already in progress.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

I'm conflicted- I'm both surprised that there hasn't been more betrayal up til now... and really disappointed that there has been- especially the Cardassians. I had hoped that the good of Cardassia would trump the "good job" pat on the head a Cardassian would get from a Vorta for betraying his people.

Of course, to a pretty fair number of Cardassians, that's exactly how they see loyalty--they feel like they're doing right if they get that pat on the head and they're left alone (i.e. no harassment from Obsidian Order/Central Command). They've been indoctrinated to be that way--the state wants unquestioning obedience. And Dukat, Damar (at first), and now Broca have all been saying that obeying the Dominion is the official party line.

That's why the rebellion didn't happen until someone VERY prominent (i.e. Damar) came out and advocated for it. Even the four guls in my story seem to have given pause about really starting in full force without Damar's orders (though they'd been preparing well before then and I think that they would have eventually done it on their own...though it would've been interesting to see how long it would take).

Hmm... good point. Up til Damar's rebellion, they probably would have brushed off the fact they were losing territory til after, thinking everything would be split after complete victory. Or like you say, obedience to the state is so important to them that they are thrilled with any commendation, like the guy that betrayed the Cardassians that Damar, Kira and co were going to meet.

I love the humour in here despite the danger- it makes everything better in a bad situation, keeps people... I dunno... hopeful?

I think it naturally happens...people do that lest the situation really get to them.

I love it- don't stop!
And I like this regular humour in a tense situation better then in some shows/episodes where something funny happens exclusively before a tragic death.

Better than alot of Pocket Books' TrekLit I've read.

I triple-dog dare you to have the nerve to say that in TrekLit.

You're instigating...

 

[TerriO]

Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

I'm not instigating. I'm merely pointing out how easy it is to insult people in a forum they can't legally visit, and wondering if he has the nerve to say it in TrekLit.

The only reason I can be here is because I don't write Trek professionally anymore. As it is, I have to avoid any threads that have Stargate fic, since I am writing that professionally right now.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I am writing this in response to the kerfuffle that occurred yesterday/last night in the thread for The Thirteenth Order. If RevdKathy would prefer this discussion not happen here, I understand and you need only let me know. But since it occurred in response to my work, I felt I needed to speak up.

I just want to state this for the official record:

As the author I have never claimed my own work to be better than Treklit. Nor do I have any sort of official version of Cardassia. I'm willing to provide my opinions, but that's exactly what they are and shouldn't be treated with any more seriousness than that. I believe I have repeatedly stated here and elsewhere in the forum that if you want to see a master writer and worldbuilder at work, to check out the works of Diane Duane. That's how it's done, and if I accomplish even half of that, I'll be thrilled.

If, however, anyone wishes to read my work--or any other fanfic--to the exclusion of officially-licensed literature for any reason, that's their own business and I won't stand in the way of their doing so and I hope that I or someone else will provide them with what floats their boat. That is their right to free choice. I think people have a right to their preferences, and especially now that there's only one official timeline in the licensed lit (as opposed to the past where each author seemed to have their own continuity), I can see why those who aren't fans of the official version might turn to fanfic to get what they might have gotten out of the Pocket Books line before--i.e. a competing (and maybe even contradictory) vision of the Trekiverse. For myself, that was something I really valued in the Pocket Books TOS literature especially...the degree of free rein the individual authors had. There are some I absolutely cannot stand, and some absolute masterpieces with a 180-out take on the Trekiverse. These days, with everything falling under one unified vision, fanfic is the main competition now, where it used to be that the biggest competition came from Pocket Book itself.

As for me, I dabble in both. I buy the Treklit from the parts of that "expanded universe" that I like (yes, I know the Star Wars term is not official), and I ignore it from the parts that I don't. And I read the fanfic from continuities I like, ignore what doesn't interest me. I think both my likes and dislikes are OK to have, and there is some fanfic right here that floats my boat better than some parts of the official Trekiverse. I think it's my right to hold that opinion...that doesn't mean I'm insulting Treklit or its authors. It's a matter of preference, and that's natural.

Terri--Just a side question. Legally, if you're not writing in that exact niche, you're permitted to view other fanfic? I had been under the impression (mistaken, apparently) that professional authors were unable to view any work of any sort that wasn't officially published.

(And about the "aficionadofic" thing...that's just Aquehonga's sense of humor, not an air of superiority. He likes puns and playing around with words. Just like the whole Nerys64 thing--that's a reference to my nominal rank of commodore, a joke that came out of the Fleet Captains' lounge. Commodore 64... )

 

[RevdKathy]

Hi Nerys, I don't think the 'kerfuffle' as you call it was anything to do with the remark about TrekLit - I saw that as a joke response. I do think that the silly excessive smilie posts and the affectation of speech is a bit out of place in a forum dedicated to good writing (and containing some excellent examples).

 

[Thor Damar]

^ Agreed with all of the above. My current attempts at FanFic are merely my own interpretation of Cardassian history and politics that I have posted here in the hopes that people may find them interesting.

As for the terklit I like and admire the stuff they have written recently about the Cardassians (the older books simply lacked the information gathered in the various TNG and DS9 episodes) and I am really looking forward to TNES.

Aquehonqa's aficionadofic pun was presumably a gentle dig at both our fondness for the Cardassians and the fact that our writings mostly revolve around them. Personally I find it quite amusing!

 

[Aquehonga]

Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

I'm not instigating. I'm merely pointing out how easy it is to insult people in a forum they can't legally visit, and wondering if he has the nerve to say it in TrekLit.

Back in the days when I haunted the TrekLit board, I had said I found some Trek aficionadofic to be better than a percentage of PB's TrekLit. That was the least of it

I posted many bowl-busting threads up yonder in TrekLit, if you recall. I'd always post what I was thinking up there back then, as though it were a live interaction. Posting from the hip you could say.

Surely you remember? I had many such nerves tad over 2 years ago & so.

I just enjoy Nerys 64's story is all. And, her tale is better than a percentage of PB TrekLit I've read.

Not just her's. I've read some other aficionadofix that are better than some TrekLit.

Just letting Nerys 64 know how much I like her tale.


Of course, the web is full of pitiful fanfix, from all genres, just as bookstores have volumes of crappy books & magazines.

Surely there are aficionadofilms better than any number of canonuous Paramount ST episodes & films. The story quality is in the eye of the aficionado(s) yes?

Aficionadofic? Implying superiority?

Absurd! My name for fanfix

I say toh-mAY-toh, you say toh-mAH-toh.

You say Dean Stockwell, I say Dean Spockwell.

I say aficionadofic, you say fanfic.

That's how the cookie's crumbling.

Memories of TrekLit resurfacing. TrekLit doesn't need me potentially "ruffling their feathers" anymore. Nor I desire to possibly be in a quagmire up there again

Sorry Nerys 64

 

[Count Zero]

I don't think TerriO has anything against people reading fan fic or even preferring it to the official TrekLit, he seemed to oppose badmouthing something or someone where there won't be any defense by the badmouthed because they can't come here.

As for TrekLit vs. fan fiction: I do read both, and I'm quite happy with the direction the TrekLit universe is taking. There are some lines/authors I can't get into or have no interest in reading but I buy a lot of the books. There is very well written fan fiction out there, that's true. But frankly, and I hope no one will be offended by this, I have yet to read any fan fic that comes close to what someone like Christopher Bennett writes. I guess, if you're at that level, you're a professional writer . Not to mention the tons of really, really bad fan fiction out there. (I don't mind so much, I think people should express themselves, I'm a hippy like that.)

 

[TerriO]

She, actually.

And I have no problems with people reading fanfic. I cut my writing teeth on fanfic. That's why I offered to back Kathy up when she needed a break.

To be honest, I have my own issues with TrekLit. I can't stomach the direction of the line right now, myself. As usual with me and jobs, I quit right before it all turned to crap. And the guys know I think that, so I'm not saying anything behind their back.

My main problem with the TrekLit bashing is people doing it in places where the writers can't rebut the accusations. If you're going to insult someone's work, at least have the decency to do it where they can respond.

(For the record, I've seen rank amateurs write better fanfic than Christopher's ever produced in his short-lived career, but that's just IMO. Goddess knows everyone here has a better capacity for writing sexual relationships, just as a forinstance.)

The cutesy emoticon dumps detract from what's being said, and RevdKathy said as much. They also make the post difficult to read if overused as has been known to happen. Do we want to be cute while voicing our opinions, or understood?

I don't want anyone fearing for stating their own opinions here. Constructive criticism is never a bad thing for a writer. Distracting from the discussion, however, is hardly helpful. I'm glad Nerys Ghemor started this thread. (BTW, Acquehonga, is that another quirk? Calling authors by the wrong name? Just want to know going forward. )

 

[Aquehonga]

I wasn't aware of this thread till about a minute ago, when I saw Nerys's last post on her S&U story thread alerting folks to it

Before reading TerriO's post, I didn't know TrekLit writers are legally banned from this here forum. That never even crossed my mind at all. Figured the whole board was a free-for-all for everyone, like a buffet.

My worst offense up in TrekLit, which I didn't realize until the 1st reply came, was one time I said I didn't give a rat's arse how I posted my thread, bragging about an utter disregard for grammar, punctuation, spacing, entc ent al. I told them I was posting what I thought as it poured out of my head, simple as that.

Then, the cavalry of pro-writers came at me full-steam over that remark. Wrong board for that. Forgot how that came up.

A TrekLit writer or a regular poster nitpicked the way my OP was written, so I just cut loose, saying I didn't care how my posts were grammatically, just posted straight from the brain. Post now, grammar later.

Dumb move. Generally speaking they're right, but I pointed out TrekBBS is for fun yes? Being its beer'n`stibbles & not an English class, I usually give the Laws of Lit much deserved time off when I'm on here. (Sans if I ever post any aficionadofix They have to follow the Laws of Lit.)

Canonizing aficionadofic authors & demonizing TrekLit writers was hardly my agenda down in Nerys's story thread. I didn't know I had an agenda

Back in the day, I didn't make a habit of posting headbutting replies & threads up in TrekLit. Just happened sometimes for "posting from the hip".

Time for a McDonald's burger

 

[Count Zero]

She, actually.

Duly noted.

(For the record, I've seen rank amateurs write better fanfic than Christopher's ever produced in his short-lived career, but that's just IMO. Goddess knows everyone here has a better capacity for writing sexual relationships, just as a forinstance.)

Got any links per chance? I'm always in for some good fan fic and this has gotten me interested.

 

[TerriO]

(For the record, I've seen rank amateurs write better fanfic than Christopher's ever produced in his short-lived career, but that's just IMO. Goddess knows everyone here has a better capacity for writing sexual relationships, just as a forinstance.)

Got any links per chance? I'm always in for some good fan fic and this has gotten me interested.

Pick any one where it's obvious the writer has ever seen a breast in their lifespan.

But I'm getting into territory I didn't want anyone to go into, so I'll stop now.

And, Acquehonga? They're banned from coming in here for the same reason posting story ideas is banned in TrekLit. All it takes is one fanfic writer with delusions of attention to make life hell with accusations of theft of story idea. That's why I can be here, but now on the caveat that I can't look at any Stargate fic posted here, since I'm under contract for a Stargate novel right now. I'm going to make one suggestion that might help you. Write as stream of conscious and however you want, but don't hit "Submit" until you've read your post at least once.

 

[Myasishchev]

Are there actually clauses in the contracts saying "You may not read fan fiction until performance is complete"?

Seems a little overreactive, although I understand the concern. I'm rather certain most fanfics contain unprotectable concepts anyway--note the Capcom v. MKR debacle, which is hilarious. Although it's dead (ha ha) obvious that Dead Rising is a total ripoff of Dawn of the Dead, the concept of a zombie apocalypse at the mall is apparently "wholly unprotectable." I'd suspect a lot of stuff in Star Trek is probably also "wholly unprotectable." Like starships, aliens, bald captains, godlike jerks, that sort of thing.

Indeed, it almost seems likely accidental replication will occur given the sheer mass of stuff out there. Is there a guy at Pocket vetting this stuff? I mean, is it someone's job to try to minimize similarities, or when it does happen does Pocket take the stance of innocent and independent replication, which if I recall is a defense to that sort of thing?

Also: do some of the other writers. That burn on Christopher was awesome. Do David Mack!

 

[Count Zero]

I was hoping for some fan fic that matches Bennett's writing conceptwise and in eloquence. I don't really care that much about sexual relationships or, more precisely, the description of them. It's also pretty difficult to write those well, and I grew up on classic authors who couldn't write them due to the morals of their times, so I wouldn't expect it, anyway.
But I must say, I never found those things to be awkward in Bennett's Trek books. Oh well, maybe I'm just not a connaisseur...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

My problem with Christopher is less his writing and more his attitude. I can no longer feel good about buying any of his books because of the way I see him treat people around here and the deference others show towards that. I'm not going to pay for that kind of behavior. If I want one of his books, I'll get it secondhand.

 

[Aquehonga]

Sorry for this tangent but I love what they did with all the board's forum titles.

Was about time.

For a second I thought I possessed the site's PTB, changed the forum titles, & forgot.

How refreshing.

I am impressed

 

[DavidFalkayn]

Well, it is April Fools Day...

Are there actually clauses in the contracts saying "You may not read fan fiction until performance is complete"?

I'm not sure, but I think there might very well be such clauses in some contracts. I do know of at least one author who was sued/threatened with a lawsuit by a fan fiction writer. You have to be very careful about such matters as a professional writer--it's a totally different ballgame and a professional writer has to approach his/her work with a totally different mindset than a fan fiction writer does. We do what we do because its fun--the professional does what he/she does because that's how they bring home the bacon. Fan fiction writers can afford "muses"--professional writers can't. Professional writers have deadlines to meet, fan fiction writers don't. For us, writing is a hobby; for the professional, it's a job.

 

[Count Zero]

My problem with Christopher is less his writing and more his attitude. I can no longer feel good about buying any of his books because of the way I see him treat people around here and the deference others show towards that. I'm not going to pay for that kind of behavior. If I want one of his books, I'll get it secondhand.

I wondered how long it would take until that came up. If that's really such an important criterion to you, you'll find your choice of entertainment quite limited. Many (maybe even most) artists are jerks (that doesn't mean that I think CLB is a jerk). I guess, you need a certain egotistical mindset to muster the discipline and conviction it takes to create a work of art. I don't think it diminishes their accomplishments.
I know that Thomas Mann, my favourite author, was a bit of an ass, but I still love his books. Paul McCartney isn't a very agreeable person either, yet I love his music.
Besides, I think that CLB just love to argue for the sake of it. It can be entertaining and maybe a message board needs posters who do that to flourish. There are probably a number of artists I admire that do or have done much worse than what CLB does.

 

[SLWalker]

I wondered how long it would take until that came up. If that's really such an important criterion to you, you'll find your choice of entertainment quite limited. Many (maybe even most) artists are jerks (that doesn't mean that I think CLB is a jerk). I guess, you need a certain egotistical mindset to muster the discipline and conviction it takes to create a work of art.

No, you don't. All of those things -- discipline, conviction, devotion to creating art -- come from within. What you choose to project of yourself to the world comes from a different place, and it is a choice.

So, when you do decide to whip out your ego and stick your nose in the air, you can't be too shocked when people blow you off. Especially when you pretend like your works are untouchable; the minute any author does that, fic or pro, they're not really worth any more time or effort.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--The Thirteenth Order

I'm not instigating. I'm merely pointing out how easy it is to insult people in a forum they can't legally visit, and wondering if he has the nerve to say it in TrekLit.

The only reason I can be here is because I don't write Trek professionally anymore. As it is, I have to avoid any threads that have Stargate fic, since I am writing that professionally right now.

I just posted that after I had the urge to say that on the Trek Lit board... simply because you dared the OP to do it.

Not in a mean way... I was just tempted.

I have found that in addition to have read too much Trek Lit lately (I mean a *ton*) I'm also getting a bit tired of reading it due to the arguing that's been going on. It's making some people cranky, so going with your bet would be a bad idea...

And if I read of an author being either nasty, or thinking they're infallible etc. I do have a hard time giving them my money. And that goes for Omnibus books too. I look at it and think... this guy is a dick... I just can't do it. It's rare that people irritate me that much, I'd like to think I'm good at finding good points in everyone. But some people just... ugh. Cracking and buying SH is okay though.

Some of my favourite poets etc. are rather nasty or weird. And I find that does dampen my enthusiasm for the work (this ____ is wonderful... but he was beating his wife...). But you can enjoy the words on the page...

I've been trying to keep to threads that interest me, and staying out of other stuff to avoid the problem.

I do think it's great that published authors keep out of here, to avoid any plagiarism mess real, coincidental or imagined.