Re-Watching VOY
- Thread starter Lord Garth
- Start date
i have a theory. well, more like an idle rumination. that the holodeck goes whacky so much because it's big and trying to manage all the treadmill fields and viewpoints and stuff. and the holosuites don't because you only have one or two people in a small space, and they network together for larger thingies.
He didn't appear in "FAIR TRADE" and "BLOOD FEVER", and those were filmed back to back. So it's likely those were the two episodes he was suspended. Whether that was with no pay or a significantly reduced amount, I don't know. (I guess that would depend entirely on the contracts.)
My apologies for putting my thoughts on so many episodes at once. (I'm playing catch up on these wonderful reviews.)
This one easily ranks as among the worst of VOY for me. (And aparently a lot of others, too... it's won 'Most Disliked Season 3" VOY episode FIVE times straight, and I'm pretty sure it won at least once for the entire series.) I get what you mean by the 50s style they were going for, but I think it was just done so badly.
Fun fact: that other male who was killed was played by Patrick Fabian, who would later play Howard Hamlin in BETTER CALL SAUL. (Excellent series! If you've never seen it, I definitely recommend it.)
Fun fact: that other male who was killed was played by Patrick Fabian, who would later play Howard Hamlin in BETTER CALL SAUL. (Excellent series! If you've never seen it, I definitely recommend it.)
This episode, ironically, highlights two problems of Janeway that Chakotay excelled in as Captain. First, he made sure people were promoted accordingly... there's something to be said about having that kind of reassurance that your hard work does merit something more than just a few more replicator rations or whatever. (Though considering how the Year of Hell really did a number on the crew count, they were almost certainly necessary promotions to fill those gaps in positions.) Second, it was mentioned that Kes was one of the DOCTORS on the ship, which indicates there are multiple doctors besides The Doctor. That should frankly have been one of Janeway's first tasks once they got stranded in the Delta Quadrant... train more crew to be actual doctors. (To be fair, in "PARALLAX", she did assign Tom to be a field medic and later Kes became that, and Tom got be field medic again once she left. But while field medics are important, having more trained doctors is even more important, especially since The Doctor is technologically based. Going through the Year of Hell without him online was exactly what they needed to prove that the ship needed more than just him as their practicing doctor.)
There is one other family on board Voyager... the Delaney sisters. They have been mentioned sporadically since "TIME AND AGAIN", and we see them for the first time later. I do agree that Tom gave The Doctor some excellent advice. He really does give some good, grounded advice to various people throughout the show.
I think this is one of the best of the entire franchise. Period. One of the reasons why it worked so well was exactly what you said: it focused more on the Voth and their perspective than our crew. The only thing that I noticed was that canister of warp plasma is NOT actually from Voyager. That would be the same container Neelix used in "FAIR TRADE", and that was warp plasma from somewhere other than Voyager. That would have made it impossible for Gegen to use it to find Voyager, and therefore the story would have been changed. (Unless they found something else to use to find them.) I would normally ding an episode for an error that would fundamentally change it, but in this case, it was done so extremely well that I can let it slide. This was an easy 10 for me.
I really liked this one, too. It was a pretty unique way of taking over a place. I would have been more suspicious earlier, though... it just seemed off from the jump. Chakotay saying 'let's just hope I'm being paranoid' when he had access to areas restricted should have come MUCH sooner in the episode. The comparison to "THE CAGE" is an intreresting one, and I never really connected that until you did. It makes sense, despite the reasons being radically different between the two scenarios.
I think this was VOY having fun at its best. And it is a great end point that separates the show from pre and post Seven of Nine. I loved seeing Seska again... she was the best single person villain of the series. This was a NOVEL idea. (Pun was intended.) I would likely also give it a 10. Just superb fun.
I have my Top 10 Episodes for Early-Voyager and my Bottom 5.
All I have to do now is rank them. So, that list will be coming soon in a separate thread.
All I have to do now is rank them. So, that list will be coming soon in a separate thread.
I really love "NEMESIS".
"NEMESIS"...
It's the last really good Chakotay episode for a long time. One of the things that impressed me about it was the change of words. It actually served two functions... first, it's nice to see words come across as slightly different than normal with the universal translator. This should honestly occur more often, particularly when meeting with Delta Quadrant aliens. Second, it gives us a point of reference to indicate, with language, at what point Chakotay truly starts to sympathize with the Vori and fall under the indoctrination. The more he uses their choice of words, the more he falls under the indoctrination, until we see him fully under that spell. For me, this one is in the 9 area. (9 - 9.5, most likely.)
One little side note: this is now the THIRD shuttle Chakotay has lost in roughly 2 years' time. ("INITIATIONS", "UNITY", and here.) And Janeway probably realized this and probably revoked his pilot's license for a LONG time. (Sadly, she seems to have reversed that decision, because he DOES lose one more shuttle before the series ends.)
It's the last really good Chakotay episode for a long time. One of the things that impressed me about it was the change of words. It actually served two functions... first, it's nice to see words come across as slightly different than normal with the universal translator. This should honestly occur more often, particularly when meeting with Delta Quadrant aliens. Second, it gives us a point of reference to indicate, with language, at what point Chakotay truly starts to sympathize with the Vori and fall under the indoctrination. The more he uses their choice of words, the more he falls under the indoctrination, until we see him fully under that spell. For me, this one is in the 9 area. (9 - 9.5, most likely.)
One little side note: this is now the THIRD shuttle Chakotay has lost in roughly 2 years' time. ("INITIATIONS", "UNITY", and here.) And Janeway probably realized this and probably revoked his pilot's license for a LONG time. (Sadly, she seems to have reversed that decision, because he DOES lose one more shuttle before the series ends.)
I heard he was a problem early on, as a young actor who made poor choices. But despite that, the way the powers that be treated his character was incredibly puerile.
"The man was a menace." - Agent Dulmer, probably
Shuttlecrafts shook in terror whenever Chakotay went to the shuttlebay.
That's why later on, Tom Paris was like, "Nope! Uh-uh! No one flies the Delta Flyer but me!"
Okay, he didn't say that, but in my headcanon he did.
"Scorpion, Part I"
Production-wise, this is Season 3 Episode 22. Airdate wise, this is Season 3 Episode 26. But as far as I'm concerned, it's Season 4 Episode 0. We're finally here! And what an opening: "We are the Borg! You will be assimilated... " and they're instantly destroyed by Species 8472. Cue opening credits! Right to the point.
And a new season (for all intents and purposes), a new holodeck program! I like the DaVinci program. It's not for everyone, but DaVinci is someone who Janeway can bounce different ideas off of and get a different perspective from. In 1997, I was excited to see DaVinci because he was played by John Ryhes-Davies. Most people know him from Indiana Jones or Lord of the Rings, but I mainly know him from Sliders. Another '90s sci-fi show that I used to watch. He played the Professor and, like a lot of people, I wasn't too thrilled when his character was killed off, which happened not too long before this episode was made. He played my favorite character on Sliders, so it was great to see him on Voyager.
As soon as it was mentioned in First Contact that the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant, I knew they'd show up on Voyager. They slowly built up to it earlier in the season and now was the payoff. It would've been easy to just do another "The Best of Both Worlds", but they thankfully they didn't. The Borg aren't coming for Voyager; they have enough on their plate with Species 8472. Voyager just happens to be heading towards their space, since they have no way around it.
The one flaw of this episode is Janeway thinking a path through Borg Space would be their way through Borg Space. She should've wondered why the Borg weren't using it. Then they found it really quickly! Species 8472. So, the one flaw isn't even much of a flaw, since it was pointed out in the same episode.
Species 8472 aren't Star Trek's first CGI Aliens, but they're the first CGI Aliens for a Major Enemy. Almost 30 years later, the CGI still holds up. This was really cutting-edge special effects for TV at the time.
Kim gets affected by whatever bio-technobabble virus Species 8472 gives him. If I didn't know what was coming next, I'd say it would've looked like they were getting rid of Kim not Kes.
Kes was very useful, being able to sense Species 8472 and their intentions, "The weak will perish."
After Doctor comes up with a way to fight Species 8472, more bio-technobabble, but I got the gist, it gives Janeway a bargaining chip with the Borg. Chakotay doesn't like the idea of helping the Borg, but I'm on Janeway's side. If Species 8472's mentality is "the weak will perish", that's Villain Speak. After Species 8472 was finished with the Borg, they'd try to neutralize whoever else they see as a threat.
I understand Chakotay's point-of-view about wanting to avoid the Borg and Species 8472, but they can't keep running every time they encounter a new enemy who's more powerful. There's the fight or flight response, and Chakotay looks like he's all flight. Which should be VERY surprising coming from a former Maquis leader. But it's Chakotay, so I'm not surprised. At this point, I think the only reason Chakotay rose so high up the Maquis ranks was because of how high he'd risen in Starfleet. He knew how the sausage was made, so that made him valuable. That's the only way I can rationalize it in my head.
I loved at the inside of the Borg Cube that Janway is transported to looks like design from First Contact. Not as big of a budget as the movie, but still a huge visual step up from TNG. And then the episode ends on a cliffhanger as the Borg are attacked by Species 8472!
This is my favorite episode of Voyager up to this point, and it was my favorite the first time around as well. I give it an 11.
Have to mention one more thing, my favorite scene of the episode: Janeway using the inflections of other Captains when reading their reports about the Borg. Chakotay's right, she did do a pretty good Picard. "In their collective state, the Borg are utterly without mercy."
Production-wise, this is Season 3 Episode 22. Airdate wise, this is Season 3 Episode 26. But as far as I'm concerned, it's Season 4 Episode 0. We're finally here! And what an opening: "We are the Borg! You will be assimilated... " and they're instantly destroyed by Species 8472. Cue opening credits! Right to the point.
And a new season (for all intents and purposes), a new holodeck program! I like the DaVinci program. It's not for everyone, but DaVinci is someone who Janeway can bounce different ideas off of and get a different perspective from. In 1997, I was excited to see DaVinci because he was played by John Ryhes-Davies. Most people know him from Indiana Jones or Lord of the Rings, but I mainly know him from Sliders. Another '90s sci-fi show that I used to watch. He played the Professor and, like a lot of people, I wasn't too thrilled when his character was killed off, which happened not too long before this episode was made. He played my favorite character on Sliders, so it was great to see him on Voyager.
As soon as it was mentioned in First Contact that the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant, I knew they'd show up on Voyager. They slowly built up to it earlier in the season and now was the payoff. It would've been easy to just do another "The Best of Both Worlds", but they thankfully they didn't. The Borg aren't coming for Voyager; they have enough on their plate with Species 8472. Voyager just happens to be heading towards their space, since they have no way around it.
The one flaw of this episode is Janeway thinking a path through Borg Space would be their way through Borg Space. She should've wondered why the Borg weren't using it. Then they found it really quickly! Species 8472. So, the one flaw isn't even much of a flaw, since it was pointed out in the same episode.
Species 8472 aren't Star Trek's first CGI Aliens, but they're the first CGI Aliens for a Major Enemy. Almost 30 years later, the CGI still holds up. This was really cutting-edge special effects for TV at the time.
Kim gets affected by whatever bio-technobabble virus Species 8472 gives him. If I didn't know what was coming next, I'd say it would've looked like they were getting rid of Kim not Kes.
Kes was very useful, being able to sense Species 8472 and their intentions, "The weak will perish."
After Doctor comes up with a way to fight Species 8472, more bio-technobabble, but I got the gist, it gives Janeway a bargaining chip with the Borg. Chakotay doesn't like the idea of helping the Borg, but I'm on Janeway's side. If Species 8472's mentality is "the weak will perish", that's Villain Speak. After Species 8472 was finished with the Borg, they'd try to neutralize whoever else they see as a threat.
I understand Chakotay's point-of-view about wanting to avoid the Borg and Species 8472, but they can't keep running every time they encounter a new enemy who's more powerful. There's the fight or flight response, and Chakotay looks like he's all flight. Which should be VERY surprising coming from a former Maquis leader. But it's Chakotay, so I'm not surprised. At this point, I think the only reason Chakotay rose so high up the Maquis ranks was because of how high he'd risen in Starfleet. He knew how the sausage was made, so that made him valuable. That's the only way I can rationalize it in my head.
I loved at the inside of the Borg Cube that Janway is transported to looks like design from First Contact. Not as big of a budget as the movie, but still a huge visual step up from TNG. And then the episode ends on a cliffhanger as the Borg are attacked by Species 8472!
This is my favorite episode of Voyager up to this point, and it was my favorite the first time around as well. I give it an 11.
Have to mention one more thing, my favorite scene of the episode: Janeway using the inflections of other Captains when reading their reports about the Borg. Chakotay's right, she did do a pretty good Picard. "In their collective state, the Borg are utterly without mercy."
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I love how the direction shows just how dire and tense things are when showing all the crew getting prepared. It's rarely seen and a useful visual tool."Scorpion, Part I"
Production-wise, this is Season 3 Episode 22. Airdate wise, this is Season 3 Episode 26. But as far as I'm concerned, it's Season 4 Episode 0. We're finally here! And what an opening: "We are the Borg! You will be assimilated... " and they're instantly destroyed by Species 8472. Cue opening credits! Right to the point.
And a new season (for all intents and purposes), a new holodeck program! I like the DaVinci program. It's not for everyone, but DaVinci is someone who Janeway can bounce different ideas off of and get a different perspective from. In 1997, I was excited to see DaVinci because he was played by John Ryhes-Davies. Most people know him from Indiana Jones or Lord of the Rings, but I mainly know from Sliders. Another '90s sci-fi show that I used to watch. He played the Professor and, like a lot of people, I wasn't too thrilled when his character was killed off, which happened not too long before this episode was made. He played my favorite character on Sliders, so it was great to see him on Voyager.
As soon as it was mentioned in First Contact that the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant, I knew they'd show up on Voyager. They slowly built up to it earlier in the season and now was the payoff. It would've been easy to just do another "The Best of Both Worlds", but they thankfully they didn't. The Borg aren't coming for Voyager; they have enough on their plate with Species 8472. Voyager just happens to be heading towards their space, since they have no way around it.
The one flaw of this episode is Janeway thinking a path through Borg Space would be their way through Borg Space. She should've wondered why the Borg weren't using it. Then they found it really quickly! Species 8472. So, the one flaw isn't even much of a flaw, since it was pointed out in the same episode.
Species 8472 aren't Star Trek's first CGI Aliens, but they're the first CGI Aliens for a Major Enemy. Almost 30 years later, the CGI still holds up. This was really cutting-edge special effects for TV at the time.
Kim gets affected by whatever bio-technobabble virus Species 8472 gives him. If I didn't know what was coming next, I'd say it would've looked like they were getting rid of Kim not Kes.
Kes was very useful, being able to sense Species 8472 and their intentions, "The weak will perish."
After Doctor comes up with a way to fight Species 8472, more bio-technobabble, but I got the gist, it gives Janeway a bargaining chip with the Borg. Chakotay doesn't like the idea of helping the Borg, but I'm on Janeway's side. If Species 8472's mentality is "the weak will perish", that's Villain Speak. After Species 8472 was finished with the Borg, they'd try to neutralize whoever else they see as a threat.
I understand Chakotay's point-of-view about wanting to avoid the Borg and Species 8472, but they can't keep running every time they run into a new enemy who's more powerful. There's the fight or flight response, and Chakotay looks like he's all flight. Which should be VERY surprising coming from a former Maquis leader. But it's Chakotay, so I'm not surprised. At this point, I think the only reason Chakotay rose so high up the Maquis ranks was because of how high he'd risen in Starfleet. He knew how the sausage was made, so that made him valuable. That's the only way I can rationalize it in my head.
I loved at the inside of the Borg Cube that Janway is transported to looks like design from First Contact. Not as big of a budget as the movie, but still a huge visual step up from TNG. And then the episode ends on a cliffhanger as the Borg are attacked by Species 8472!
This is my favorite episode of Voyager up this point, and it was my favorite the first time around as well. I give it an 11.
Have to mention one more thing, my favorite scene of the episode: Janeway using the inflections of other Captains when reading their reports about the Borg. Chakotay's right, she did do a pretty good Picard. "In their collective state, the Borg are utterly without mercy."
Also everyone was well utilized here.
But my favorite part is the scorpion story scene. That was a great, tense back and forth conversation. And both made excellent points.
But I actually side more with Chakotay on this one. He was right when he said Janeway can be too blinded with trying to get home to look at other possibilities. Very tunnel vision when it comes to those matters.
I will, however, credit Janeway with having the balls to even entertain this idea.
I would give this one a 10. I actually don't have any complaints about it.
(I have more to say, but it has to wait until you watch part two...)
I think I also lean more toward Chakotay's POV here. If it was the Kazon or the Vidiians or maybe even the Dominion or such, I'd understand Janeway's POV more, but the Borg just don't seem like the civilization that a lone Starfleet vessel (and not even a top-of-the-line one) should be messing with, much less a civilization that's trouncing the Borg.
Some numbers. Let's see how the season made out.
False Season 3
1. "Basics, Part II" --> 8
2. "Flashback" --> 6.5
3. "False Profits" --> 2
4. "Sacred Ground" --> 7
Season 3
5. "The Chute" --> 9
6. "Remember" --> 10
7. "The Swarm" --> 9
8. "Future's End, Part I" --> 10
9. "Future's End, Part II" --> 8 (up from a 7)
10. "Warlord" --> 8
11. "The Q and the Grey" --> 5.5
12. "Macrocosm" --> 9
13. "Fair Trade" --> 7
14. "Alter Ego" --> 8
15. "Coda" --> 6
16. "Blood Fever" --> 8.5
17. "Unity" --> 7
18. "The Darkling" --> 6
19. "Rise" --> 8
20. "Favorite Son" --> 4
21. "Before and After" --> 9
22. "Real Life" --> 5
23. "Distant Origin" --> 10
24. "Displaced" --> 8 (up from a 7)
25. "Worst Case Scenario" --> 10
26. "Scorpion, Part I" --> 10 (it's an 11, but I'll stick with the system)
Season Average (for the whole thing) --> 7.63
How does that compare with the other seasons? Looking at the aired seasons, might as well keep this consistent, here's how it stacked up...
Season 1 --> 7.91
Season 2 --> 7.46
Season 3 --> 7.63
So, I thought Season 3 was a step up from Season 2 but not as good as Season 1. In my mind, I perceive Season 3 as the best of the early seasons, but there was a lot of mediocrity (and a few outright bad episodes) that dragged it down; which I'm pretty sure I subconsciously want to forget.
I think the perception comes from leaving the Kazon behind, making progress on their journey home, and some really great standouts.
False Season 3
1. "Basics, Part II" --> 8
2. "Flashback" --> 6.5
3. "False Profits" --> 2
4. "Sacred Ground" --> 7
Season 3
5. "The Chute" --> 9
6. "Remember" --> 10
7. "The Swarm" --> 9
8. "Future's End, Part I" --> 10
9. "Future's End, Part II" --> 8 (up from a 7)
10. "Warlord" --> 8
11. "The Q and the Grey" --> 5.5
12. "Macrocosm" --> 9
13. "Fair Trade" --> 7
14. "Alter Ego" --> 8
15. "Coda" --> 6
16. "Blood Fever" --> 8.5
17. "Unity" --> 7
18. "The Darkling" --> 6
19. "Rise" --> 8
20. "Favorite Son" --> 4
21. "Before and After" --> 9
22. "Real Life" --> 5
23. "Distant Origin" --> 10
24. "Displaced" --> 8 (up from a 7)
25. "Worst Case Scenario" --> 10
26. "Scorpion, Part I" --> 10 (it's an 11, but I'll stick with the system)
Season Average (for the whole thing) --> 7.63
How does that compare with the other seasons? Looking at the aired seasons, might as well keep this consistent, here's how it stacked up...
Season 1 --> 7.91
Season 2 --> 7.46
Season 3 --> 7.63
So, I thought Season 3 was a step up from Season 2 but not as good as Season 1. In my mind, I perceive Season 3 as the best of the early seasons, but there was a lot of mediocrity (and a few outright bad episodes) that dragged it down; which I'm pretty sure I subconsciously want to forget.
I think the perception comes from leaving the Kazon behind, making progress on their journey home, and some really great standouts.
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I always considered season 3 the weakest of VOY overall exactly because of the 'mediocre middle' of the season. It's an odd one because it started off (production order wise) strong and ended really strong.
I'll give S3 points for at least finally getting away from the Kazon.
It made sense for them to get away from the Vidiians as well, though I found them a far more compelling adversary, especially in those moments when they were painted as more than just another one-dimensional antagonist for Our Heroes.
It made sense for them to get away from the Vidiians as well, though I found them a far more compelling adversary, especially in those moments when they were painted as more than just another one-dimensional antagonist for Our Heroes.
I think the period from "Coda" to "Real Life" was the roughest part of the season. Constant up-and-down that isn't broken until "Distant Origin". Neverminding the numbers, I think this illustrates the point better:
15. "Coda" --> Mid
16. "Blood Fever" --> Good
17. "Unity" --> Good
18. "The Darkling" --> Mid
19. "Rise" --> Good
20. "Favorite Son" --> Bad
21. "Before and After" --> Good
22. "Real Life" --> Mid
Even if one disagrees with me about which episodes fall into which category, I think the end result is effectively still the same.
15. "Coda" --> Mid
16. "Blood Fever" --> Good
17. "Unity" --> Good
18. "The Darkling" --> Mid
19. "Rise" --> Good
20. "Favorite Son" --> Bad
21. "Before and After" --> Good
22. "Real Life" --> Mid
Even if one disagrees with me about which episodes fall into which category, I think the end result is effectively still the same.
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For me season 3 was up and down the whole time, with the next mediocre story rarely being more than a couple of episodes away. Though there were some really high peaks as well, most of them in the first half. Once I got into the second half it was one Coda or Darkling after another until they got back on track at the end. And I didn't even like Before or After, Real Life or Distant Origin, so I mean right at the end.
Blasphemy.
Real Life was a mid episode for me though. Really enjoyed Before and After for showing some potential the show truly had. Although killing off Janeway and Torres was never gonna happen.
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