Re-Watching DS9

Some numbers:
Damn, you haven't given yourself much room to go higher for later seasons!

I had a very different experience with the first season, as I found it to be the undefeated most tedious season of Trek for 8 years until Enterprise season 1 came out and gave it a real fight. Though I did like Babel, I thought that was a good one. I'm going to have to rewatch that episode in particular at some point to see if I can understand why it gets so much hate. And I couldn't stand Dramatis Personae, as it's about aliens we know nothing about playing out a conflict that doesn't have anything to do with anything, after the crew gets possessed for reasons that make no sense. It's like the writers thought they had to contrive sci-fi reasons for the characters to disagree instead of giving them actual substantial problems to deal with, and by episode 17 I had no patience left for that.

Though we are in agreement that Vortex was one of the worst episodes, and that Emissary, Duet and In the Hands of the Prophets would be stand outs in any season.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kkt
Damn, you haven't given yourself much room to go higher for later seasons!
I think I did. 7 was the most common rating I gave. If I really like the episodes it's going to be 8s and above. And I barely used the 9 rating this season. Expect to see more of that rating in the future.

I rate based on what I just saw. I don't do the "I'm going to hold back for later" thing. I know other people do that, but I don't. 6 is like, "It was kind of okay, it killed some time." I'm not going to rate episodes a 6 if I don't really feel that way.

I don't think the first season of DS9 was better than the sixth season of TNG, but I thought it was much better than TNG's first season. Next season, TNG and DS9 switch places. I thought the second season of DS9 was better than the seventh season of TNG.

Good
9-10 = Loved It
7-8 = Liked It
Mediocre
5-6 = Eh
Bad
3-4 = Didn't Like It
1-2 = Hated It

Most of the time, it's going to be 7s and 8s. I liked it or I really liked it. 5s and 6s will happen. 9s and 10s will happen too. Anything below a 5, they're rare (contrary to what TrekBBS would have us believe), but they're out there. But, if I thought they were common, I wouldn't be reviewing this series. That wouldn't be very fun to watch at all, nor would it be enjoyable for me to write about.

"Q-Less", for instance, I thought it didn't work because I don't think Q fits in on DS9. But I didn't outright dislike it. It was in the "Eh" territory. I wish it was better, but it wasn't "Threshold" or "And the Children Shall Lead".
 
Last edited:
After 20 episodes of DS9, I'm back to watching VOY. I re-watched Seasons 4-7 (the seasons with Seven of Nine) before re-watching Seasons 1-3. Right now I'm on "The Cloud". I'm just pausing to say after 20 straight episodes of DS9... this feels so weird.

EDITED TO ADD: But I did get back into the swing of it and re-adjusted after the first act.
 
Last edited:
Hm. I wonder whether Voyager makes a different impression if being binge-watched and/or isn't being watched interspersed with DS9 as when it originally aired.
 
Hm. I wonder whether Voyager makes a different impression if being binge-watched and/or isn't being watched interspersed with DS9 as when it originally aired.
I can tell you first-hand it makes a huge difference. Watching DS9 and VOY at the same time in the '90s, I always thought DS9 was better. Binging VOY, or watching it separate from DS9 in general, makes a huge difference. It allowed me to appreciate Voyager better on its own terms.
 
I recently watched TNG, Voyager and Enterprise simultaneously, alternating each episode, and I was surprised how much I liked Voyager this time around. I mean I never disliked the series, but it felt kind of trivial compared to all the things happening in the Alpha Quadrant. Putting it against TNG however, made it easier to appreciate all the things it was doing right, and the two series weren't as different in quality as I expected.
 
Bracing myself. I'm about to watch two TNG Ferengi Episodes specifically to compare TNG Ferengi, I call them "NexGenerengi", to DS9 Ferengi. Hopefully 90 minutes of watching that won't be too too painful.

Wish me luck.
 
"The Last Outpost" because it's their first appearance. And "The Price", because this is when TNG finally nailed down how they'd have the Ferengi for rest of the series.
Ah, "The Price". Best known for the Crusher/Troi workout scene. And don't forget the sequel to this episode, Voyager's "False Profits". That way you can compare and contrast how all three shows depicted the Ferengi.

"The Last Outpost" gets a lot of flack, but it's actually an episode that I enjoy revisiting. For one thing, it's always great to see Armin Shimmerman playing a Ferengi. The first time I saw it, a few days before it aired, was in a crowded hall at a Star Trek convention in LA where it was introduced to us by none other than Majel Roddenberry. If I recall correctly, the episode was largely well received by the audience at the time. These were early days and I remember Majel telling us that the show had already been "penciled in" for six seasons, but that "we all know what's on the other end of a pencil".

ETA: I always liked how the Ferengi were portrayed in "The Perfect Mate", and not just because one of them was portrayed by Max Grodenchik.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kkt
I think "The Last Outpost" is pretty good, overall. The Ferengi on the planet, though... some of the actions just were caricaturish. (And who can forget Worf's unforgettable line, "Pygmy cretins!")

"The Price" is not bad, either, though it is among the weaker of the season 3 episodes. (Considering how strong TNG season 3 is anyway, that's not really a dig at the episode.)


The two VOY episodes with the Ferengi, "FALSE PROFITS" and "INSIDE MAN"... bloody hell, those were atrocious. Easily among the worst of that entire series.
 
"The Last Outpost" (TNG)

The first appearance of the Ferengi, but not the first mention. Their first mention was in "Encounter at Farpoint" when Picard told Groppler Zorn he hoped the Ferengi didn't find him as tasty as their past associates. This makes the Ferengi sound deadly, dangerous, vicious.

Then the Enterprise counters a Ferengi vessel in "The Last Outpost". Data says their technology is evenly matched. Picard holds a conference in the Briefing Room. He wants all the senior officers' input. He hopes to avoid war with the Ferengi. He wants to avoid "total annihilation." They'd been talked up. Way up. So far, the episode also borrows from TOS's "Balance of Terror" and "Arena".

If this is 1987, and I'm watching this, and I've never seen the Ferengi before, then right up to the last moment before they make visual contact, I have this fearsome image of the Ferengi in my mind. "These are the Bad Guys taking the place of the Romulans and Klingons!"

Picard: "Captain's Log, Stardate 41386.5: It is with a heavy heart that I have offered to meet whatever reasonable and necessary terms are demanded by the Ferengi. I fear for my people and my vessel in the event the unknown Ferengi ask the unreasonable. How can I oppose even unreasonable demands?"

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:


That's the reaction I bet Sisko would have if he read that log entry! :angel:

The Ferengi misunderstand and think Picard is asking for surrender. They say, "We will die to the last one of us before such dishonor!" These are supposed to be Ferengi... right? :wtf::wtf::wtf:

Anyway, Picard realizes that the Ferengi have been seized as well, just like the Enterprise. That's the end of us ever thinking of the Ferengi as a fearsome threat ever again. Continuing on.

Then we see the Ferengi on-screen. Two thoughts about that: 1) The distorted voice still makes them sound threatening. 2) The total white behind the Ferengi makes it look like he's in a late-'70s/early-'80s music video.

Don't believe me or don't remember? Check this out. ;)

Those are some fun songs. Back to the episode!

The Enterprise and the Ferengi are both being seized by a planet which was part of the Tkon Empire. Picard tries to reach out to the Ferengi, but they misunderstand each other right from Day One. The Ferengi Daimon asks, "Are you calling us uncivilized? Are you calling us thieves?" This is starting to sound more like the Ferengi on DS9. "Amusing, Hew-mon. Trust each other?!" Riker says, "I'm not usually one for distrust at first sight, but this may been an exception." That basically sets the tone for how the Enterprise-D crew will approach the Ferengi for the rest of the series.

But we're still going with the idea the Ferengi are a threat. When the Enterprise and the Ferengi ship agree to send parties down onto the planet's surface, Riker asks Picard, "I'd like some additional help in case we run into trouble. Can you spare Worf?" Picard says, "Take him!" Have to show how big of a "threat" the Ferengi are. We need the Klingon! Because this episode was made in 1987, and I'm an '80s kid, I'm thinking of The A-Team. It's like Picard's Hannibal, Riker's Face, and he's asking if he can bring Mr. T! :klingon::klingon::klingon:


To be totally fair, they might also be worried because this is a former Tkon world, and they want to be extra cautious. But still, they'd never seen the Ferengi before this, so they don't know about them either.

By the way, now I have to say: given how much of an established presence the Ferengi are later on, I have a very hard time believing Starfleet never saw the Ferengi before this! There's just NO WAY that works, and I personally just ignore it. But anyway...

The planet's surface looks interesting. It's what I think a TOS planet would've looked like if they had a bigger budget. The crystals are a nice touch. Thunder and lightning too, to make the planet seem dangerous.

And then there we have it! We get to see the Ferengi with their fur uniforms, the blue whips, and they're moving around like monkeys! If I were watching this for the first time in 1987, I'd be thinking, "These are supposed be who take the Klingons' place? Come on!" I do like when they use the whip, though. That actually is a cool weapon.

30 minutes into the 45-minute episode, we finally hear Armin Shimmerman's Ferengi speak. In an undistorted voice anyway. I'll call him "Not-Quark". He's still hunched over. He grabbed Riker's badge. "Looks like gold, tastes like gold... " I can see why Armin Shimmerman would've been embarrassed about this. Then the Ferengi start fighting the away team. Worf calls them, "Filthy cretins!" And they look pretty ridiculous.

Then they see Yar. "Is this a female?" And then Not-Quark says, "It's true. You work with your females, arm them, and force them to wear clothing!" While they're all still hunched over and have silly expressions on their faces. "Sickening!" This attitude sure doesn't change on DS9, but it's toned down by exactly half. On DS9, the Ferengi don't care if women of other races wear clothing, they only care if Ferengi women do.

I'm not going to go into talking about the Tkon Guardian. He's not the Metron from "Arena", that's for sure.

The Ferengi try to tell the Guardian that the Federation's way is deception. This is like Trump calling any news outlet he doesn't like "fake news". (I'm surprised I held out this long before comparing the Ferengi to him!) The Ferengi offer to destroy the Enterprise if the Guardian will give power back to their ship. Half-way there. They're negotiating, as DS9 Ferengi would... but they mess up by saying they'll destroy the Enterprise.

Oh God! The Ferengi go up to Yar and say having women dressed tempts people to undress them! Yeah, it's safe to say Gene Roddenberry had a hand in the re-writes for this one! At least Yar says, "Paws off, Ferengi!" This idiot Ferengi, who isn't Not-Quark, tells Yar to "Submit!" Then Yar gives the best line of the episode, "Just try it, shorty!"

Speaking of height. They didn't cast tall actors for the Ferengi to begin with. Having them hunched over makes it even worse. They look tiny, especially compared to how tall Riker is. Who's going to be intimidated by them?

At the end of the episode, when the Tkon Gaurdian sides with Riker, the Ferengi start jumping around and shouting more nonsense before screaming. Riker says the Ferengi remind him of how Humans were centuries ago.

Okay. The Ferengi's first appearance. Way to undercut themselves. The raw, unfiltered concept of the Ferengi. I'm guessing that Gene Roddenberry wanted the Ferengi to represent the worst of Humanity while he wanted the Humans to represent the best of Humanity. But I think it works on another level too: Gene Roddenberry wanted to use the Federation as a mouthpiece for his ideals, while he wanted to use the Ferengi as a mouthpiece for his vices.

I liked the Ferengi whips, their ship designs, and that's it. The Ferengi here are like cartoon characters. In DS9, at least they try to make them seem like actual characters with differing points of view. It might sound as if I don't like the episode, but it isn't true. It's just crazy to look at how the Ferengi started out. That's all.
 
Last edited:
One thing I don't understand...if Riker's so worried about the Ferengi, why doesn't he request a full security team (or for that matter, why doesn't Yar do so) versus just Worf?

Anyway, anything good I personally might have to say about the episode is undercut by the ludicrousness of the Ferengi in this episode. I guess I'll note that the Tkon do show up in a Greg Cox novel and their history is both glorious and tragic...it also sets up something interesting that unfortunately has yet to be paid off in the books AFAIK.
 
"The Price" (TNG)

Something DS9-adjacent right before the opening credits and it's not the Ferengi! The Enterprise is right next to a wormhole, hosting negotiations for it. "There it is, ladies and gentlemen. The first and only stable wormhole known to exist. It's yours for the right price." Hence the title of the episode. In Picard's log entry, after the credits, he says it leads to the Gamma Quadrant! This must've been one of the episodes Rick Berman and Michael Piller thought back to when they were creating DS9.

When we see the Ferengi this time, they're standing upright. Huge improvement right off the bat. The uniforms are also an improvement. The Ferengi don't look they're wearing gray sweatpants and wild fur coats. The uniforms in this episode look more business-like, in a 24th Century way. They also talk normally instead shouting and screaming. They're still a pain in the ass, and Picard still finds them annoying, but at least they've been toned down to a point that I can find tolerable.

The Ferengi have gold, but they're not calling it gold-pressed latinum yet.

Getting to the Gamma Quadrant without the wormhole, Picard says it would take nearly a century to travel the same distance without it. So, they definitely had this idea in the back of their mind as far back as the third season of TNG.

No need to go into the Ral/Troi romance. If this were a TNG Rewatch thread, I'd talk about it, but not here.

The Ferengi distrust of the Federation is reinforced in this episode. When Picard wants Data and Geordi try going through the wormhole in a shuttle to see what they can find, the Ferengi want to send a shuttle of their own to see what's on the other side.

Seeing the inside of the wormhole with the two shuttles travelling through. For 1989, it doesn't look bad. This is more Proto-DS9. I wonder if this shot gave inspiration to create the Runabouts for DS9? Something a with a little bit more to it than a normal shuttle craft.

Then there's the twist. The wormhole took them to the Delta Quadrant instead of the Gamma Quadrant. Proto-Voyager. Whenever Geordi and Data try to help the Ferengi, the Ferengi ignore disregard them and say, "We're competitors, not partners!" Ultimately, Data and Geordi make it back and the Ferengi shuttle doesn't.

Back on the Enterprise, there's a scene in Ten Forward where we see another one of the Ferengi in the background trying to hook up with women Starfleet Officers. Normally I'd say I'm not too thrilled with this, but it's 100 times better than in "The Last Outpost" when that one Ferengi says, "Submit!!!"

When it looks like the Ferengi won't get the wormhole, they say "If we can't have the wormhole, no one will!" and they try to fire at it, before the Enterprise stops them. But then here's the difference between TNG Season 1 and TNG Season 3. In Season 1 that would've been all there was to it. In Season 3, it's part of a ruse. Ral is working with the Ferengi to stage a fight with the Federation, so it looks like wormhole is just a pawn in their power struggle. The writers subverted expectations, because they knew the audience still remembered how the Ferengi were depicted before.

The redifining of the Ferengi's motives will be taken a step further with DS9's Wormhole. In DS9, the Ferengi don't have any claim over the Wormhole, but the Nagus says the opportunities for profit and business they gain from travelling through it and making deals with species in the Gamma Quadrant.

At the end of the episode, when the Ferengi Daimon wants to know what happened to his shuttle and his men, Picard tells Worf to, "Advise him to set a course for the Delta Quadrant. He may run into them in 80 years or so." Rick Berman, Michael Piller, and Jeri Taylor must've thought back to this episode when creating VOY as well! On that note, no, I won't be reviewing "False Profits". Sorry.

I'll finish this off by saying I think the Ferengi in mid-TNG were a necessary intermediate step between the Ferengi in early-TNG and the Ferengi in DS9.

Next up, I'll be looking at the first appearance of the Trill in "The Host".
 
Last edited:
Then that's when Odo asks how Darheel could've known about Shakaar's resistance unit. This is when he becomes suspicious
When I watched Duet, it seemed a bit strange for me. If it was Shakaar resistance unit which liberated the camp, Darheel, in fact, could have become curious about the unit which liberated "his" camp and thus found out about Kira.
 
"The Host" (TNG)

Watching first, third, and fourth season episodes of TNG back-to-back-to-back shows just how fast the tone and maturity level of the series changed from year-to-year. It's hard to wrap my mind around "The Last Outpost" and "The Host" belonging to the same series. Sorry, I couldn't NOT comment on that. On with comparing the Trill in this episode to the Trill in DS9.

Aside from the different makeup, the host is just a carrier for the symbiont in this here. The host body seems to only exist for the symbiont to walk, talk, and live through. Odan goes from the first host to Riker and then to the last host who, unlike the previous two, is a woman. It's too much for Crusher to keep up with, who had a romantic relationship with Odan at the beginning of the episode.

The largest difference is in the attitude of Trill society. In DS9, Trill aren't allowed to continue romances from one host to the next. In this episode, Odan wanted to maintain a relationship with Crusher even after all the changes.

The symbionts look the same as in DS9 but, unlike in "The Host", we don't see them causing the host's belly to bulge.

Another huge change is that Odan can't handle using the transporter out of fear of how it would affect the symbiont. Obviously this is never a concern of Dax's.

What else? I think the Trill were carried over onto DS9 because the writers liked the idea of having a character who lived several lives, how that would effect the way Sisko would interact with such a person, and so that you could have the sci-fi idea of someone having to have dealt with being someone else before. Or several someone elses. It's sort of like the science-fiction version of reincarnation.

That's all I really have to say. I think the DS9 writers figured they could get some more mileage out of the idea.

Next up are "The Wounded" and "Ensign Ro".
 
  • Like
Reactions: kkt
I still think Beverly's line at the end of "The Host" is worded rather poorly, but that's all I'll say about it.

As for Trills being allowed to continue romances after changing hosts, it's been a long time since I rewatched, but didn't the wording leave some room for interpretation? Perhaps the ban is only between two joined Trill?
 
I still think Beverly's line at the end of "The Host" is worded rather poorly, but that's all I'll say about it.

As for Trills being allowed to continue romances after changing hosts, it's been a long time since I rewatched, but didn't the wording leave some room for interpretation? Perhaps the ban is only between two joined Trill?
I couldn't remember the exact wording myself, so I looked up what I remember as the first mention of it. (Transcript of DS9 4x06 Rejoined from chakoteya.net)
KIRA: One thing I don't understand is why Dax and Lenara can't just pick up where they left off. I mean, if they're still in love with each other.
BASHIR: Ah, now there's the rub. Even if they do harbour feelings for each other, it's strictly against the rules of Trill society for them to acknowledge it in any way.
KIRA: Rules?
BASHIR: Well, it's more of a taboo, really. Having a relationship with a lover from a past life is called reassociation, and the Trill feel very strongly that it's unnatural.
KIRA: Unnatural? How can it be unnatural for a married couple to resume their marriage?
BASHIR: Well, the whole point of joining is for the symbiont to accumulate experiences from the span of many lifetimes. In order to move on from host to host, the symbiont has to learn to let go of the past, let go of parents, siblings, children, even spouses.
KIRA: I don't understand how two people who've fallen in love, and made a life together, can be forced to just walk away from each other because of a taboo. There must be some Trill who have reassociated with people from their past lives.
BASHIR: I asked Dax the same question, and it seems there have been a few.
KIRA: And what happened?
BASHIR: They were exiled from the Trill homeworld.
KIRA: That means the symbionts would never be joined to a new host.
BASHIR: Exactly. So when the hosts die, the symbionts die with them. So you see, even if Dax does harbour feelings for Lenara, she can't take that risk. For a joined Trill, nothing is more important than to protect the life of the symbiont. Nothing.
It definitely sounds like the taboo extends to any type of family, however, since this scene was referring to two joined Trills there is a possibility non Trills could be excluded.
 
Last edited:
That kind of begs the question of why Ezri Dax was allowed to return to DS9 and (at least briefly/potentially) resume relations with Worf. It's possible she was exempted because Ezri never asked to be joined/she was in Starfleet/because of the war/because things with Worf didn't go far enough to become problematic (and nobody mentioned it to the Trill government)/other.
 
That was something I had thought of as well, and it's a bit odd it was never mentioned. I'm not sure if the writers simply forgot, whether they were squeezing through loopholes, or if they simply ignored it to write a story they felt was more interesting.
 
Back
Top