Rank confusion

[C.E. Evans]

IMO, it was because they never really settled on O'Brien's rank until relatively late in during DS9's run. At one point early in the series, his official rank was "Chief of Operations."

But then Starfleet is consistent in its inconsistency regarding its ranks...

 

[The Wormhole]

I thought they had intended to make him a non-com when DS9 began, and that's why his rank insignia changed to one hollow pip?

On a seperate note, that single hollow pip looked kind of stupid. I was glad later on when they replaced it with the pin displaying chevrons.

 

[CoveTom]

IMO, it was because they never really settled on O'Brien's rank until relatively late in during DS9's run. At one point early in the series, his official rank was "Chief of Operations."

No, that was his position aboard the station, just like Chief Engineer, and remained such throughout the series.

His rank was a separate matter. Though it was a bit murky because of his TNG days, where he started with the rank pins of a lieutenant, but letter was changed to a chief petty officer.

 

[Starbreaker]

Nobody knew a bunch of nerds were going to be arguing over this 40 years later.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Enlisted crew doesn't necessarily mean the under qualified and those who do the menial jobs. A specialist or a scientist who are not in Starfleet could have a temporary assignment aboard a Starship for a mission.

Also in in Star Trek 6 we get to see a Commander & Chief of Starfleet.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Enlisted crew doesn't necessarily mean the under qualified and those who do the menial jobs. A specialist or a scientist who are not in Starfleet could have a temporary assignment aboard a Starship for a mission.

Also in in Star Trek 6 we get to see a Commander & Chief of Starfleet.

That would be Commander In Chief and he was an Admiral.

A civilan specialist or scientist assigned to a Starship would would not hold any sort of rank. They would have to follow the rules and regulations though.

 

[C.E. Evans]

IMO, it was because they never really settled on O'Brien's rank until relatively late in during DS9's run. At one point early in the series, his official rank was "Chief of Operations."

No, that was his position aboard the station, just like Chief Engineer, and remained such throughout the series.

Actually, no. It was indeed his stated rank in the episode "Tribunal":

[O'BRIEN: My name is Miles O'Brien. My rank, Chief of Operations...]

This infers that "Chief of Operations" was both his rank and position aboard Deep Space Nine at that time.

His rank was a separate matter. Though it was a bit murky because of his TNG days, where he started with the rank pins of a lieutenant, but letter was changed to a chief petty officer.

Later in DS9's run, however, the issue of his rank seemed to have been resolved as that of a "Senior Chief Petty Officer." His rank insignia also seemed to match that grade within the U.S. Navy as well.

 

[mtblillie]

Stargate did this too and it really frustrated me.

Stargate has featured more prominent enlisted personnel than Star Trek. Just off the top of my head, there's Walter Harriman, Sgt. Siler, Sgt. Greer, Sgt. Bates, Sgt. Riley. Star Trek has Chief O'Brien.

This is true, but I made the comment knowing this. SGU has a lot of enlisted personnel which is great, but only like one or two are main characters, they even made a combat medic an officer (cool idea, but I've never heard of a medic being an officer, unless they are a doctor or a PJ). In SG1 all of the NCOs were support personnel for the base, not off world team members, in SGA it was pretty much the same thing, the one NCO commonly featured was a jerk and often the antagonist in the story. It just really frustrated me that every off world guy that got captured or stuck on a planet was a lieutinant.

 

[The Wormhole]

^^At least Stargate has made more of an effort to show that NCOs exist than Star Trek has.

 

[Kieran1701]

Well, when Chief O'Brien refers to his rank as Chief of Operations, he probably is referring to his rank AND rate. That is, he may have been a Chief Petty Officer at that point and may have been promoted later in the series, and his rate (his job) was something regarding Operations. Like how in the US Navy a Chief Petty Officer who has the rate of Boatswain's Mate refers to his rank as 'Chief Boatswain's Mate'.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Or "Chief of Operations" could have been an actual grade for Starfleet NCOs that was discontinued not too long afterwards (would help to explain his last change of rank insignia too).

 

[Red Ranger]

For ST:TMP, they added a single broken line of rank braid for "ensign"

What about Lieutenant JG?

IIRC, there was no lieutenant j.g. rank during the TMP era. Junior officers went straight from ensign to lieutenant. The grade was apparently reinstated when the TWOK uniforms came into service a few years later.

You're forgetting the one (ostensible) lieutenant j.g. in TOS: Joe Tormolen in The Naked Time. He had a broken braid, even thought he was only i.d.'ed as a lieutenant. But of course, a j.g. would be referred to only as a lt., not by their full rank, in most spoken situations. It's too bad they didn't use the broken braid more often to indicate officers junior to full lieutenants like Sulu.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yeoman is a position rather than a rank.

Diana Prince was Steve Trevor's yeoman in "Wonderwoman". It wasn't her rank, it was her job. Secretary/personal assistant.

Wikipedia: "In the United States Navy and United States Coast Guard, a yeoman is a rating usually with secretarial, clerical, payroll or other administrative duties."

 

[C.E. Evans]

What about Lieutenant JG?

IIRC, there was no lieutenant j.g. rank during the TMP era. Junior officers went straight from ensign to lieutenant. The grade was apparently reinstated when the TWOK uniforms came into service a few years later.

You're forgetting the one (ostensible) lieutenant j.g. in TOS: Joe Tormolen in The Naked Time. He had a broken braid, even thought he was only i.d.'ed as a lieutenant.

Actually, I do know that quite well. That's why I said there was no lieutenant j.g. rank during the TMP era (or at least costume designer Robert Fletcher didn't create a rank insignia for one at the request of associate producer Jon Povill).

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Yeoman is a position rather than a rank.

Diana Prince was Steve Trevor's yeoman in "Wonderwoman". It wasn't her rank, it was her job. Secretary/personal assistant.

Wikipedia: "In the United States Navy and United States Coast Guard, a yeoman is a rating usually with secretarial, clerical, payroll or other administrative duties."

You're right. It wasn't her rank. Enlisted personnel in the USN have ratings, which is usually their job designation.
However, enlisted personnel also have rates, which are conceptually similar to an officer's rank.

 

[Chaos Descending]

In the US Navy there is a rating called "Operation's Specialist", so a Chief Petty Officer with the rating (aka job) of Operation's Specialist would be called "Chief Operation's Specialist". Perhaps O'Brian is a 24th Century OS, and because he is the Division CPO they just call him Chief of Operations.

Just idle speculation.

 

[Nick086]

In the US Navy there is a rating called "Operation's Specialist", so a Chief Petty Officer with the rating (aka job) of Operation's Specialist would be called "Chief Operation's Specialist". Perhaps O'Brian is a 24th Century OS, and because he is the Division CPO they just call him Chief of Operations.

Just idle speculation.

That a very good way of pointing it out. Were you in the Navy? Wouldn't the Officers above him call him Mr. O'Brien? Wasn't he a senior officer of DS9?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IIRC, there was no lieutenant j.g. rank during the TMP era. Junior officers went straight from ensign to lieutenant. The grade was apparently reinstated when the TWOK uniforms came into service a few years later.

You're forgetting the one (ostensible) lieutenant j.g. in TOS: Joe Tormolen in The Naked Time. He had a broken braid, even thought he was only i.d.'ed as a lieutenant.

Actually, I do know that quite well. That's why I said there was no lieutenant j.g. rank during the TMP era (or at least costume designer Robert Fletcher didn't create a rank insignia for one at the request of associate producer Jon Povill).

How could you tell one way or the other? The rank insignia on most of the TMP uniforms, i.e. those little symbols on the shoulders, was illegible on screen (AFAIK, the only officers who had clearly visible stripes on their sleeves were Kirk and Decker).

 

[Chaos Descending]

That a very good way of pointing it out.

Thanks!

Were you in the Navy?

I was indeed.

Wouldn't the Officers above him call him Mr. O'Brien?

If O'Brian were an enlisted man (for example Chief Petty Officer) as we all assume, then no.

"Mister" is a term of address for officers only, including all warrant officers and commissioned officers from Ensign up to Lieutenant Commander, but not enlisted men. Not even senior enlisted men like Chief Petty Officers.

Wasn't he a senior officer of DS9?

That depends on how you look at it. They certainly portrayed him as if he was.

Command Master Chief of a ship in the real Navy is considered "senior leadership" without being a "senior officer".

 

[C.E. Evans]

You're forgetting the one (ostensible) lieutenant j.g. in TOS: Joe Tormolen in The Naked Time. He had a broken braid, even thought he was only i.d.'ed as a lieutenant.

Actually, I do know that quite well. That's why I said there was no lieutenant j.g. rank during the TMP era (or at least costume designer Robert Fletcher didn't create a rank insignia for one at the request of associate producer Jon Povill).

How could you tell one way or the other? The rank insignia on most of the TMP uniforms, i.e. those little symbols on the shoulders, was illegible on screen (AFAIK, the only officers who had clearly visible stripes on their sleeves were Kirk and Decker).

They've been visible on various production stills for over thirty years. Plus, in The Making of Star Trek: TMP, there is a typewritten memo in which Povill told Fletcher (in some great detail) what the rank insignia for officers were, and lieutenant j.g. was omitted.