Raiders of the Lost Vash

[2takesfrakes]

Do you feel that type of Saturday Matinee treatment of Vash would've been more appropriate?

- - - - - - - - - -

After Picard put his beloved Vash into Q's hands, I've always felt like TNG was shortchanged, as far as her character goes. Before that time, she was more an unscrupulous grave robber, than really an archeologist. And TNG had the opportunity to try to play that RAIDERS thing up, with her, but they didn't. She did have her little "adventure" with Picard on Risa, but that didn't come anywhere near what I'm talking about. Vash should've brought that sort of RAIDER's level of energy to her shows ... and it never even threatened to come that close!

An opportunity was lost, also, for Picard, because of the toned-down version of Vash that TNG ended up presenting. And yet, as the episode Q'pid reveals: Vash, alone, can release not only his inner fantasies ... but his inner qualities, as well. He's a risk-taker. An adventure-seaker, under that prim & proper exterior. A Saturday Matinee-type episode - one withOUT Robin Hood - with his woman should've freed Picard of some of those formal trappings, with greater permanence ...

 

[doubleohfive]

Nope.

 

[YJAGG]

it would of made for an odd ball episode to change the more thoughtful TNG nature to a rough and tumble IJ story and it would be a massive budget buster as having JLP jumping off some kind of speeder bike onto a moving hover car to save Vash, or jumping out a window and shimmy down a breaking drainpipe, that breaks and sends him into a hover truck filled with Denobian Bloodworms ...[sigh] Anything but Bloodworms I hate Bloodworms.

 

[EnriqueH]

I just finished rewatching Captain's Holiday, and I loved it.

Patrick Stewart was wonderful. See, if you want to give Picard more action, that was a smart way of doing it. You start off with regular Picard and slowly draw the character out of his box naturally, so that it doesn't feel as arbitrary as it did in Nemesis.

My memory of Vash was that she was a hottie, but kind of a strange one to give Picard. Maybe because I'm older now, but I think she made a great partner with Picard because she brought out a fun side of him.

 

[Memory Alpha]

Yeah, she used her knowledge of archaeology and her personal skills to her own advantage, definitely. Captain's Holiday would have been a fine lead-up to "Raiders of the Lost Vash," ha. As it stands I think Qpid is mostly a gigantic missed opportunity. It's a waste of her character. If they wanted to do an episode where Q sets up some silly charade like that, they could have done it easily without Vash. Besides, I didn't even get that Picard's desire to rescue her was even based on his feelings as much as his sense duty.

But also, if you look hard enough you really can see the element of Picard that managed to get himself stabbed in a bar fight during his immature days. He always, also probably partly out of duty, volunteers to put himself in harm's way. An adventure episode would have been a great opportunity to explore this side of Picard's personality. The desire for personal danger, or maybe to overcome it, is positively there in Picard.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Scaled back, a boobytrapped ancient ruin filled with archeological treasures and golden trinkets could've probably been fitted into TNG's budget. It would've been interesting, too, if she had a sort of Belloq rival of her own. Someone from her past who would emerge out of the rubble, as a challenge to both she and Picard. And if Vash's having to leave the series was still an unavoidable eventuality, at least the rival character could be an occassional guest star and continue to underline Picard's adventurer streak. Especially if it was a woman ...

 

[EnriqueH]

I liked the Belloq idea for about 2 seconds, before I realized it would've been too much of an Indiana Jones ripoff.

 

[doubleohfive]

My memory of Vash was that she was a hottie, but kind of a strange one to give Picard. Maybe because I'm older now, but I think she made a great partner with Picard because she brought out a fun side of him.

Women, no matter how "hot" they may be, aren't prizes to be "given" be given to men.

 

[T'Girl]

Women, no matter how "hot" they may be, aren't prizes to be "given" be given to men.

Never been to a wedding have you?

"Who gives this bride."



.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

And yet, as the episode Q'pid reveals: Vash, alone, can release not only his inner fantasies ... but his inner qualities, as well. He's a risk-taker. An adventure-seaker, under that prim & proper exterior.

Exactly!

I just finished rewatching Captain's Holiday, and I loved it.

Patrick Stewart was wonderful. See, if you want to give Picard more action, that was a smart way of doing it. You start off with regular Picard and slowly draw the character out of his box naturally, so that it doesn't feel as arbitrary as it did in Nemesis.


My memory of Vash was that she was a hottie, but kind of a strange one to give Picard. Maybe because I'm older now, but I think she made a great partner with Picard because she brought out a fun side of him.

I'm constantly admiring writer Ira Steven Behr who created Vash for the series. He created her to do just as you described.

Scaled back, a boobytrapped ancient ruin filled with archeological treasures and golden trinkets could've probably been fitted into TNG's budget. It would've been interesting, too, if she had a sort of Belloq rival of her own. Someone from her past who would emerge out of the rubble, as a challenge to both she and Picard.

I love this idea. Arctus Baran (The Gambit) and Kivas Fajo (The Most Toys) both would have been perfect characters to use as a 'Belloq' type rival. Arctus Baran would have made a darkly sinister villain and Kivas Fajo would have made a villain whose a sinister nature was juxtaposed by comedic undertones. Either would have made a great villain for Picard/Vash to face.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[borgboy]

I just rewatched Qpid as part of my ongoing rewatch/read Trek marathon.
I like Vash, she's fun, and I think the story arcs with her worked well as they were done.
The best part of Qpid for me was Vash surprising Q with her deviousness as she played her captors and rejected Picard's morality. I like her joining up with Q. I wouldn't have wanted her to become some kind of Raiders knockoff. It wouldn't have suited TNG.
I do think Vash and Picard, while they were fun, were best as a vacation fling and occasional friendly hook up. They weren't suited for a serious relationship or commitment to each other. Beverley was a much better choice as a partner to Picard.

 

[doubleohfive]

Women, no matter how "hot" they may be, aren't prizes to be "given" be given to men.

Never been to a wedding have you?

"Who gives this bride."

.

Way to miss the point.

Too, your reasoning, while technically not inaccurate is likewise based on antiquated gender-role assignments, maintained because of the tradition of some societies (not at all all-encompassing) more than anything else and hopefuly not at all indicative of actual "ownership" fathers or families have over their daughters.

Making the female character a "prize" for the hero protagonist in fiction is likewise an antiquated and tiresome cliche.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It would've been interesting ... if she had a sort of Belloq rival of her own. Someone from her past who would emerge out of the rubble, as a challenge to both she and Picard.

I love this idea. Arctus Baran (The Gambit) and Kivas Fajo (The Most Toys) both would have been perfect characters to use as a 'Belloq' type rival. Arctus Baran would have made a darkly sinister villain and Kivas Fajo would have made a villain whose a sinister nature was juxtaposed by comedic undertones. Either would have made a great villain for Picard/Vash to face.

When I mentioned a potential Belloq, I didn't have anyone in mind, but Boran and/or Fajo would've made an excellent choice! The lost opportunities in STAR TREK, generally, are too numerous to mention. But when they are found in TNG, it's particularly noteworthy, because this series did want to bring more to the table and to do more within the limitations of television, at that time. Then, when the movies came, the results were uneven and Season Seven seemed like it held back, in anticipation of that transition.

Going back to the beginning, though, when the shape and direction of TNG were in flux, I'm certain that Vash's popularity and uniqueness as a STAR TREK character did not go past those in charge. What did Vash OR Picard have to do with Robin Hood? It seems rather arbitrary. It seems lightheared enough, maybe it's a tribute to Erol Flynn or something, who knows? Raiders was a better fit and would've produced better results, if properly contained. And seeing Boran and Fajo double teaming against Vash and her avarice would've been glorious!

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Going back to the beginning, though, when the shape and direction of TNG were in flux, I'm certain that Vash's popularity and uniqueness as a STAR TREK character did not go past those in charge. What did Vash OR Picard have to do with Robin Hood? It seems rather arbitrary. It seems lightheared enough, maybe it's a tribute to Erol Flynn or something, who knows? Raiders was a better fit and would've produced better results, if properly contained. And seeing Boran and Fajo double teaming against Vash and her avarice would've been glorious!

I know why TPTB chose a Robin Hood story over an Indiana Jones story. The air date of Qpid is April 20, 1991. Indian Jones and the Last Crusade was three years before. In the spring of 1991, Robin Hood was everywhere due to the media hype over Kevin Costner's upcoming big budget film "Robin Hood Prince of Thieves." With 'Qpid,' TNG beat them to the punch by over a month, almost two.

Although I would have loved to have seen one or more Indiana Jones like adventures with Picard/Vash, I loved 'Qpid.' The episode is pure, unmitigated fun! This is Patrick Stewart's Picard doing Errol Flynn's Robin Hood in a wonderful homage to the classic movie. The sword fight between Picard and Sir Guy is a delightful amalgamation of Errol Flynn's Robin Hood and "The Princess Bride" with Picard's line "There's something you should know." In the scene where Robin Hood rescues Maid Marion from the tower you hear the guards outside the door being dispatched just before Picard flings the heavy door aside. "Jean-Luc," Vash sighs as they make their way across the room to each other. In one hand Picard holds his bloodied broadsword while with his free hand he sweeps Vash up into his arms for a passionate kiss. That is just classic swashbuckling taken straight from the golden age of the silver screen!

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[2takesfrakes]

Yes! Q'pid is a lot of fun and Vash did get to appear in START TREK again, after that, which is good. It's always the way though, like with Ro, for example or Voyager's Rain Robinson, that STAR TREK just couldn't get these cool women who aren't main cast to really commit to it.

 

[TV's Frank]

Yes, but to what end? Does Vash become a member of the crew somehow? And what logic would there be in her returning frequently or that she would keep crossing paths with Picard? The show isn't about Picard and his crew as relic hunters or archeologists. You can pigeonhole the series like that, what's great about Trek is how it can switch it up each week and you never know what kind of episode you're going to get - mystery, Western, action, political, comedy, etc. Vash is a character with a very specific purpose and i don't see that specificity working on a constant or frequent basis on the show.

 

[EnriqueH]

Women, no matter how "hot" they may be, aren't prizes to be "given" be given to men.

Never been to a wedding have you?

"Who gives this bride."

.

Way to miss the point.

Too, your reasoning, while technically not inaccurate is likewise based on antiquated gender-role assignments, maintained because of the tradition of some societies (not at all all-encompassing) more than anything else and hopefuly not at all indicative of actual "ownership" fathers or families have over their daughters.

Making the female character a "prize" for the hero protagonist in fiction is likewise an antiquated and tiresome cliche.

Wow, somebody needs a chill pill.

Vash is FICTIONAL. And as a former writer myself, it's not uncommon to talk this way about FICTIONAL characters.

"Let's give Samantha a boyfriend in this story." "Let's give little Billy a friend. Should it be a boy or girl?" "Let's give Kirk a new Orion girl." "Let's give Janeway a boyfriend in this." "Let's give Han Solo another guy to compete with."

So relax and quit putting words in people's mouths.

You totally misinterpreted my words, so you can take your foot out of your mouth anytime now.

 

[doubleohfive]

I initially responded to your phrasing that Vash was "given" to Picard.

The later clarification wasn't directed to you but to T'Girl/Merry Christmas, who missed the point of what I was saying, as, clearly, you did.

 

[EnriqueH]

I initially responded to your phrasing that Vash was "given" to Picard.

Seems like I'm not the only missing the point since you clearly misinterpreted the meaning behind what I was saying. I clarified my point in my previous post.

The later clarification wasn't directed to you but to T'Girl/Merry Christmas, who missed the point of what I was saying, as, clearly, you did.

Why don't you enlighten me?

What was your point? That women aren't objects? You started blowing a lot of hot air based on an assumption on what I meant when I said "giving Vash to Picard".

You wouldn't have needed to clarify yourself if you hadn't jumped to a conclusion based on a complete misinterpretation.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Yes, but to what end? Does Vash become a member of the crew somehow? And what logic would there be in her returning frequently or that she would keep crossing paths with Picard? The show isn't about Picard and his crew as relic hunters or archeologists. You can pigeonhole the series like that, what's great about Trek is how it can switch it up each week and you never know what kind of episode you're going to get - mystery, Western, action, political, comedy, etc. Vash is a character with a very specific purpose and i don't see that specificity working on a constant or frequent basis on the show.

You bring up some very good points. I'm particularly taken with the statement regarding how TNG's episodic nature lent itself to a wonderful variety of stories. This aspect is very appealing to the show, for me. As is the idea of Vash becoming - not a member of the crew, per se, but - as regular character. Not so regular as to be every week, but a few shows a season would've been great!

And this would've evolved very naturally, because every civilisation has a history. Every planet's Antiquities are the object of a collector's avarice. She might even become a temporary "special advisor" for ENTERPRISE, in exchange for transport. Particularly if her knowledge about something would be key to understanding an episode, or two.

In any event, Stewart and Jennifer were actually engaged, when they were playing their episodes together. I'm convinced that if their relationship blossomed into a more meaningful and deeper commitment, we'd have seen quite a lot more of Vash, on TNG. Perhaps even along the lines of which I've proposed.