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Racism among humans in the 24th Century

Jetboogieman

Commander
Red Shirt
I was just watching Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang this morning and I couldn't help but really notice this time when Sisko is talking to Kasidy about 1960's Las Vegas and black people not being welcome there.

But the specific line "It wasn't an easy time for our people" I found incredibly interesting, it's not as if we haven't had Star Trek characters that clearly had studied earlier human history, but this one really stood out to me.

Now look, the writing served a specific purpose in this context but to geek out for just a minute, I found it interesting that a black human in the 24th Century would have the conception of black people as being "Our People" in that context when you grew up as a space faring Earthling from a multi-species space country with 150 members at war with a Bazillion others at various points.

Which leads me to think that, is it slightly possible that some, some racism still might exist among humans which is why Sisko would even be able to think along those lines at all?

Whats your thought on this?
 
It could be as simple as he studied his family history and relates to it. Similar to an American might call Gemans, English, etc "my people" even if their family moved to the US a some time ago.

I don't think they even hinted at 24th Century racism on DS9 ..

Edit: you see something like that with other human characters (Scotty, Beverly, Picard come to mind) that seemed to have a good understanding of their family history.
 
I don't think they even hinted at 24th Century racism on DS9 ..

I do remember one of the DS9 novels - Fallen Heroes - where O'Brien uses a racial slur against one of his own men. He doesn't say it, but he does think it.

Not sure what the basis of this was, since we never saw O'Brien exhibit racist tendencies on the show. Certainly not towards other humans.
 
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Sisko apparently discovered black nationalism and parochialism with his FBTS experience. He didn't hold such sentiments prior except apparently for appreciating African art and liking baseball.

As for O'Brien and the novels I chalk it up to a failure of the writers or cynicism regarding the ideals of Trek that he would even think a racial slur against humans.

Now say anti-founder or anti-cardassian sentiment is more understandable given recent history and the broad sweep of DS9.
 
What was the state of my known ancestors 4 centuries ago?

I'm mostly Pennsylvania Dutch, but the oldest two American ancestors I have are from the colonies of Massachettues, and they both happen to be of English nobility.... like, technically still nobility, but clearly each generation one step lower on the ladder.

I'm not sure if I can look at England of that era as "my people", and be kinda odd for me to accept this as " my identity" cause I only discovered it a few months ago through a great great grandmother's family tree, and like, a very large chunk of the US coincidently happens to have them as ancestors too- they certainly were not celibate.

For the actual character of Sisko, yeah.... I'm gonna have to say his family likely was till very late, backwards and ignorant racisr holdouts rejecting Federation Holism, a Brotherhood of Man approach, and just went on seething in deep rage. Many parts of the US has ethnic rednecks running separatist groups, when I lived in Alaska, they were fat white people sitting in a torn up yard, in lawnchairs staring me down. In Hawaii, fat Hawaiians in Waimanelo in the far rear clever enough to put spray painted signs up, sitting in lawn chairs drinking beer. I've seen the same thing here in West Virginia, and suspect it exists in a very similar form all over the world as a universal trait all populations produce.

Only way for it to survive that long for it to directly effect Sisko. What does this say about him as a Captain? He developed a Inequality Complex in a era of Utopic Equality. It undoubtedly would conflict with his job if stressed or mentally unbalanced, but seriously, think stating into all those Orbs messed with his head far more. I can't see how it would mess with his head cathartically unless it was the thing central to him. Seriously, several centuries had passed, your ancestors stopped being slaves a century prior to even that, I'm certain I had family members as serfs that far back. Heck, my family almost got shot during the Revolutionary War, as German emigrants refusing to draft in the 18th century. By the 19th century, they all had named their first and middle names after Presidents.

I would truely be justified in saying he is clearly of a family of hard core racists to maintain it that long. That, or he just really, really identified with early 20th century black literature. Perhaps too good of a literature professor at Star Fleet who taught that era too well?

But you also gotta note, even with this negative trait, he did choose to be a open, inclusive starfleet officer. He wasn't making white people under his command pay for ancestral crimes against "his people", unless you count everything he made O'Brien fix at off hours.

Now, beyond this unfortunate accident of a character trait that looks simply bizarre when analyzed literally, from a writers point of view, it was brilliant. You had a actor more than willing to explore these issues that many still identify with, however right or wrong, today. Being a white collar, African American intellectual in the early 20th century sucked. No way was that a good experience, takes a lot of gravitas to tell that story.

I don't think such stories should NOT he told, it is, other than the religious arc of DS9, the best aspect of the story telling. I don't think many people would of intentionally of set out to see that show had it been stand alone, unrelated to Star Trek. Very powerful, very moving.... has the nasty side effect though of making Sisko look like his family came from the most resentful, hateful stock of Louisiana racists, to of lasted that many centuries.

How many Scottish here freak out over the ways the Romans enslaved you, or how many Indians get upset about how Alexander the Great stormed your country, and everytime you see a Greek, something tenses up inside involuntarily?

It's understandable how people can have residual hate for up to 4-5 generations, but there comes a certain point where it becomes obvious you no longer have a good reason to hate them, you just love to hate. If Sisko's family was still grudging at that point, after a few centuries of earth utopia occurring, then.....

But it was genius to do from a storytelling perspective. It resonated with the actor, and I'm sure much of the African American audience. I wish they could of made it occur in a way that didn't make Sisko look like he either had a identity crisis and his in 20th century black liberation literature, or came from a super racist family. The experiences could of came from one of his ancestors, through temporal leaking, or someone the wormhole aliens had contact with via some random artifact. I would of played it that way.

If I had a nervous breakdown, convinced I was a German serf, and that my master was secretly hanging my wife and worried about my son running off to join the army, and my wheat harvest molding- I'm not so sure I would accept that as the real reality. I don't care what the French, Austrians, Russians, or Poles think of me in that timeline, or how often I get whipped, that era is so distant and unappealing to me all these centuries later I just can't begin to care. If I hallucinated that era, I wouldn't feel particularly attached.... nothing scrwaks me. Unfortunately for Sisko, something from that era did relate to him, despite the obvious fact it shouldn't really of all. 4-5 centuries really should start healing those wounds of slavery and discrimination, if your still holding onto that pain without good immediate reasons, you really need to just let go. Just looks silly and absurd.
 
What is really cool about Sisko's experience with his unique heritage is that it is really a story about being human: suffering injustice, facing adversity - and trying to hang onto your own humanity as everyone around you is losing theirs.
 
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The way things are going, racism will likely be far less than 400 years into the past from Sisko's point of view. And the examples Plutodawn cites are far more than 400 years into the past. But ultimately, one of the reasons racism is such a chronic problem in a way that's totally incomparable to the Scottish being ruled by the Romans is that it's simply not possible for a man that looks like Sisko to pass as white. And if you look at the makeup of people we see in Starfleet, we see it's still dominated by white human men.

If Star Trek is correct, intrahuman racism should be negligible sometime between the end of WWIII and the mid-22nd century. I can be almost certain that the most lingering form of prejudice will be racism, probably at least within the living memory of the NX-01 crew. So, for Sisko, it would only be as far back as the debate over slavery when drafting the Declaration of Independence is for us. Every time I watch 1776, that compromise still stings as the tragic original sin of my country's history. But humans are still inclined to be prejudiced throughout Star Trek history. Just one example in each series:

TOS: Styles against Romulans in Balance of Terror
TOS movies: much of Starfleet against Klingons in TUC
TNG: Admiral Satie against Romulans in The Drumhead
DS9: Amaro against Cardassians in Empok Nor
VOY: Joseph Carey against Holographic Doctors in Parallax
ENT: The xenophobic bar patron against all aliens in Home

The sad truth about human nature is that difference will probably always be suspected. And the fewer differences, the smaller the differences need to be to drive people apart. I would not be surprised if relatively remote colonies in Federation space have intrahuman prejudice, even in the 24th century. Maybe Sisko even knows something of this from personal experience, or the experience of some close friends and family of his.
 
What was the state of my known ancestors 4 centuries ago?

I'm mostly Pennsylvania Dutch, but the oldest two American ancestors I have are from the colonies of Massachettues, and they both happen to be of English nobility.... like, technically still nobility, but clearly each generation one step lower on the ladder.

I'm not sure if I can look at England of that era as "my people", and be kinda odd for me to accept this as " my identity" cause I only discovered it a few months ago through a great great grandmother's family tree, and like, a very large chunk of the US coincidently happens to have them as ancestors too- they certainly were not celibate.

For the actual character of Sisko, yeah.... I'm gonna have to say his family likely was till very late, backwards and ignorant racisr holdouts rejecting Federation Holism, a Brotherhood of Man approach, and just went on seething in deep rage. Many parts of the US has ethnic rednecks running separatist groups, when I lived in Alaska, they were fat white people sitting in a torn up yard, in lawnchairs staring me down. In Hawaii, fat Hawaiians in Waimanelo in the far rear clever enough to put spray painted signs up, sitting in lawn chairs drinking beer. I've seen the same thing here in West Virginia, and suspect it exists in a very similar form all over the world as a universal trait all populations produce.

Only way for it to survive that long for it to directly effect Sisko. What does this say about him as a Captain? He developed a Inequality Complex in a era of Utopic Equality. It undoubtedly would conflict with his job if stressed or mentally unbalanced, but seriously, think stating into all those Orbs messed with his head far more. I can't see how it would mess with his head cathartically unless it was the thing central to him. Seriously, several centuries had passed, your ancestors stopped being slaves a century prior to even that, I'm certain I had family members as serfs that far back. Heck, my family almost got shot during the Revolutionary War, as German emigrants refusing to draft in the 18th century. By the 19th century, they all had named their first and middle names after Presidents.

I would truely be justified in saying he is clearly of a family of hard core racists to maintain it that long. That, or he just really, really identified with early 20th century black literature. Perhaps too good of a literature professor at Star Fleet who taught that era too well?

But you also gotta note, even with this negative trait, he did choose to be a open, inclusive starfleet officer. He wasn't making white people under his command pay for ancestral crimes against "his people", unless you count everything he made O'Brien fix at off hours.

Now, beyond this unfortunate accident of a character trait that looks simply bizarre when analyzed literally, from a writers point of view, it was brilliant. You had a actor more than willing to explore these issues that many still identify with, however right or wrong, today. Being a white collar, African American intellectual in the early 20th century sucked. No way was that a good experience, takes a lot of gravitas to tell that story.

I don't think such stories should NOT he told, it is, other than the religious arc of DS9, the best aspect of the story telling. I don't think many people would of intentionally of set out to see that show had it been stand alone, unrelated to Star Trek. Very powerful, very moving.... has the nasty side effect though of making Sisko look like his family came from the most resentful, hateful stock of Louisiana racists, to of lasted that many centuries.

How many Scottish here freak out over the ways the Romans enslaved you, or how many Indians get upset about how Alexander the Great stormed your country, and everytime you see a Greek, something tenses up inside involuntarily?

It's understandable how people can have residual hate for up to 4-5 generations, but there comes a certain point where it becomes obvious you no longer have a good reason to hate them, you just love to hate. If Sisko's family was still grudging at that point, after a few centuries of earth utopia occurring, then.....

But it was genius to do from a storytelling perspective. It resonated with the actor, and I'm sure much of the African American audience. I wish they could of made it occur in a way that didn't make Sisko look like he either had a identity crisis and his in 20th century black liberation literature, or came from a super racist family. The experiences could of came from one of his ancestors, through temporal leaking, or someone the wormhole aliens had contact with via some random artifact. I would of played it that way.

If I had a nervous breakdown, convinced I was a German serf, and that my master was secretly hanging my wife and worried about my son running off to join the army, and my wheat harvest molding- I'm not so sure I would accept that as the real reality. I don't care what the French, Austrians, Russians, or Poles think of me in that timeline, or how often I get whipped, that era is so distant and unappealing to me all these centuries later I just can't begin to care. If I hallucinated that era, I wouldn't feel particularly attached.... nothing scrwaks me. Unfortunately for Sisko, something from that era did relate to him, despite the obvious fact it shouldn't really of all. 4-5 centuries really should start healing those wounds of slavery and discrimination, if your still holding onto that pain without good immediate reasons, you really need to just let go. Just looks silly and absurd.

Valid points ..though I think beyond what I already said, the other obvious answer is because it was on a TV show in the 1990s and the writers thought it would be a nice subplot to the story to have him reluctant to get in on the Oceans 11 plot.

A real Sisko in the 24th Century .. it would probably not have so much of an impact. Though I imagine people 400 years from now will have a better knowledge of us than we do of people 400 years ago from today ... just due to better record keeping and it being in a digital format and it can be watched ...

who knows, maybe by then DS9 will be in 99K 5-D format and someone will be complaining why it is not in 6-D yet :)
 
Keep in mind that the dialogue was written by 20th century writers to make a point to a 20th century (1990s) audience.

For an in-universe explanation -- if that is something a viewer requires -- the various comments given by the previous posters are possible explanations.

I read the transcript of the dialogue of that scene between Sisko and Kasidy.

Here is rest of the dialogue of that scene. Maybe, or maybe not, it will add some context to Sisko's remark.

KASIDY: You're suppose to help your friends when they're in trouble. And Vic, hologram or not, is in trouble. Not that I'd expect you to care.
SISKO: Look, this is not about Vic Fontaine.
KASIDY: Then what is your problem?
SISKO: You want to know? You really want to know what my problem is? I'll tell you. Las Vegas 1962, that's my problem. In 1962, black people weren't very welcome there. Oh, sure they could be performers or janitors, but customers? Never.
KASIDY: Maybe that's the way it was in the real Vegas, but that is not the way it is at Vic's. I have never felt uncomfortable there and neither has Jake.
SISKO: But don't you see, that's the lie. In 1962, the civil rights movement was still in its infancy. It wasn't an easy time for our people and I'm not going to pretend that it was.
KASIDY: Baby, I know that Vic's isn't a totally accurate representation of the way things were, but it isn't meant to be. It shows us the way things could have been. The way they should've been.
SISKO: We cannot ignore the truth about the past.
KASIDY: Going to Vic's isn't going to make us forget who we are or where we came from. What it does is it reminds us that we're no longer bound by any limitations, except the ones we impose on ourselves.
 
I got the feeling in the show that Kassidy wasn't even from Earth. So I guess she didn't have much of a problem with Earth's history.
When I was stationed I Korea, we Americsns thought it was funny that the Koreans hated the Chinese, Japanese, VietNamese. Lol here in the USA all of 'those races' call themselves Asians.
 
Edit: you see something like that with other human characters (Scotty, Beverly, Picard come to mind) that seemed to have a good understanding of their family history.
But when did any of those people ever refer to Whites as "our people?"
 
But when did any of those people ever refer to Whites as "our people?"

Wearing a kilt seems "our people-ish" ... they never said that phrase, but they wore or said things that indicated that they have some kind of bond with "those people" ... on another hand, I would imagine by the time we got to the 24th century, there would be very few people with 50%+ anything blood .. so the whole point is probably moot to begin with. Somewhere between the 1960s and 2300s I am sure a few Siskos would have had kids with whites, asians, you name it
 
Uh ... didn't an episode of TNG effectively take place on "Scotland" planet?

They did, but I tend to doubt that would something that would exist given that people are not so hung up on having kids with like people as was once the case. IIRC, Futurama did a similar episode (maybe it was Irish).
 
Uh ... didn't an episode of TNG effectively take place on "Scotland" planet?

Well that's one way of referring to "Sub Rosa" (an episode I have only seen maybe twice) another would be Hollywood Scotland Planet, just as VOY did Hollywood Irish village
 
Well that's one way of referring to "Sub Rosa" (an episode I have only seen maybe twice) another would be Hollywood Scotland Planet, just as VOY did Hollywood Irish village


hard to think of anything but "while I was reading a particular erotic chapter in my Grandmother's journal":barf:
 
I always love how some people will feel aggrieved that a minority maintains a memory of their persecution when they or their relatives keep the flame burning over things like the US Civil War, Karbala, or the execution of Yeshua.

He has a sense of cultural identity and history. There's nothing wrong with that.

Kor

It would be a mistake to think I took any issue at all with what he said.

I just found it interesting.
 
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