Questions regarding the ST XI continuity in novels

[Greg Cox]

^Except that episodes of Star Wars: The Clone Wars have contradicted a lot of things from the books, most notably their portrayal of Mandalore and its culture. Like I said, even if tie-ins are required to avoid conflicting with canon, the reverse is not the case.

^And if I remember correctly that actually pissed off the author who did the work developing the pre-CW series Mandalorians so much that she quite writing SW books.

But she does have a new HALO novel out.

(Shameless Tor plug of the day.)

 

[JD]

^Except that episodes of Star Wars: The Clone Wars have contradicted a lot of things from the books, most notably their portrayal of Mandalore and its culture. Like I said, even if tie-ins are required to avoid conflicting with canon, the reverse is not the case.

^And if I remember correctly that actually pissed off the author who did the work developing the pre-CW series Mandalorians so much that she quite writing SW books.

The thing about all the CW continuity errors that makes me so dissapointed in Lucasfilm is that they very easily could have chosen some other way of doing everything that wouldn't have caused a contradiction.

Yeah, I know the creators have to freedom to do whatever they want, but I still was surprised to see them so completely contradict what Karen Traviss did with the Mandalorians when I was under the impression that her version of their culture was really popular. It's kinda weird how they make references to stuff from the EU, but then present us with a totally different version than what the EU gave us. Honestly, I think I'd rather they just ignored the EU and did completely did their own thing.

And now back on topic. As for Robau, I was under the impression that the movie people simply didn't want anything sequel tie-ins, and since anything with the Kelvin would pretty much have to be a prequel, I don't see where they would have any issue with it.

 

[captcalhoun]

^Except that episodes of Star Wars: The Clone Wars have contradicted a lot of things from the books, most notably their portrayal of Mandalore and its culture. Like I said, even if tie-ins are required to avoid conflicting with canon, the reverse is not the case.

^And if I remember correctly that actually pissed off the author who did the work developing the pre-CW series Mandalorians so much that she quite writing SW books.

The thing about all the CW continuity errors that makes me so dissapointed in Lucasfilm is that they very easily could have chosen some other way of doing everything that wouldn't have caused a contradiction.

what annoyed me was that the Mandalore arc could've been done on any damn planet other than Mandalore. the bad guy with the dark-sabre was the only 'Mando' plot element.

 

[JD]

Yeah, and if they really wanted to make them Mandalorians, I don't see why they couldn't have made them some kind of splinter group or something.

 

[Christopher]

Well, it's the prerogative of the creators of the canon to use or disregard what the tie-in authors conceive. I just wish the Mandalore episodes of SW:TCW hadn't been so damn boring.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As for Robau, I was under the impression that the movie people simply didn't want anything sequel tie-ins, and since anything with the Kelvin would pretty much have to be a prequel, I don't see where they would have any issue with it.

As I said, an appearance by the PRIME timeline's version of Robau and/or his ship should not be a problem at all. It would not be a sequel or prequel. So why would "the movie people" care?

 

[Shatinator]

Such absolute approach to things, reminds me of the stance made by the previous show runners of this franchise, where the bottom line became control, control, control....

For example? Are you referring to Rick Berman here, or Richard Arnold, or Gene Roddenberry?

The simple answer-YES.

 

[Therin of Andor]

As I said, an appearance by the PRIME timeline's version of Robau and/or his ship should not be a problem at all. It would not be a sequel or prequel. So why would "the movie people" care?

And, as I said, his history would be identical in both timelines, so any whole novels about Captain Robau and the USS Kelvin, written without the participation/consultation of Bad Robot, may well tread all over their future plans, or even as-yet undiscussed possibilties, just the same as four sequel novels could.

Bad Robot knows that Robau - and the Kirk parents - were very popular characters. Ditto their version of Pike. Greenwood's coming back, supposedly. We don't know their other plans, and perhaps neither do they. Yet.

Re: Rick Berman here, or Richard Arnold, or Gene Roddenberry?

The simple answer-YES.

I would want control, too, if it were my baby. And so would you.

 

[Shatinator]

Such absolute approach to things, reminds me of the stance made by the previous show runners of this franchise, where the bottom line became control, control, control....

For example? Are you referring to Rick Berman here, or Richard Arnold, or Gene Roddenberry?

Licensed tie-ins should always created under strict guidelines. I figure that Orci and friends didn't think they'd have the spare time to read four novel manuscripts, write memos, then read the revisions; they are busy making the next movie. There are examples of what happens when licensing plans go awry: way back when, Franz Joseph had an unusual licensing agreement which enabled him to sub-license his own interpretation of ST in the "ST USS Enterprise Blueprints" and "ST Star Fleet Tech Manual" to the original "ST war game", "Star Fleet Battles" - and Roddenberry and Paramount were helpless to change it.

People still complain that DC Comics did their own post-Spock death comics after ST II, then had to create a convoluted solution to get their comic storyline ready for ST III, and all over again for ST IV.

And, you know for fact, if Bad Robot had allowed the four tie-in Pocket novels to be released, and they were then overruled/ignored by the canonical events of the next two films, there'd be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and cries of: "Why didn't Bad Robot make Pocket wait for all three films to be out before they were allowed to play in the new sandbox!"

I have watch this speculation / debate for a while now and this is what I am seeing:

• All Nu Trek Novels pulled at the insistence of JJ / Bad Robot.

That's conjectural. We don't know whether BR "insisted" or whether they and Pocket came to an amicable understanding, or what. Heck, I wrote one of the books and even I don't know the specifics.

All of this needless heavy-handed approach is completely unnecessary. All that is required is a partnership between say Pocket books and Bad Robot on focusing / steering away from certain story / character elements. In the same manner Enterprise was asked by the studio to steer away from a direct Earth - Romulan War arch, because at the time a proposed Earth-Romulan war feature film was being considered.

That's your opinion, but different people have different approaches. Abrams & co. like to maintain a tight continuity among their tie-ins, and that's their prerogative. Just because they do it differently from their predecessors doesn't mean they're doing it wrong. Heck, a lot of Trek fans over the years have been unhappy with the way the books and comics could be suddenly negated by some new episode or movie. There have been threads in the past on this very forum advocating a tighter rein on tie-in continuity more akin to the Lucasfilm approach or something.

And you're wrong that a "steer clear" agreement is all that's necessary. That often was the case in the past; for instance, DC's Trek comics set between the TOS movies had to steer clear of various things and that shaped their storylines and led them to focus more on their own original characters -- until Richard Arnold came along and told them to steer clear of original characters and focus on the main cast. The catch is, those "steer clear" arrangements go one-way. The tie-in creators are limited in what they can do, but the filmmakers or TV producers aren't obliged to avoid contradicting the books or comics -- and if the tie-ins are not generated in-house, the filmmakers/producers don't have time to keep track of them all. So it's really not practical to maintain mutual consistency between the canonical series and its tie-ins unless they're both generated by the same creators.

Such absolute approach to things, reminds me of the stance made by the previous show runners of this franchise, where the bottom line became control, control, control....

Umm, except that being in control is the showrunner's job. That's the whole point of the position -- to provide a single guiding voice that keeps everything unified and consistent.

And aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? You're complaining that Bad Robot's approach is different from what their predecessors did, but you're also complaining that they're the same?

Or maybe that's not a contradiction. They are the same in that they have the same right to control the fate of the franchise that's been placed in their hands -- and the same right to make their own independent choices about how to handle it rather than just copying what their predecessors did.

Christopher,

Yes of course all of this is my opinion, because it comes from me. That noted, I can only comment on things I am aware of, I did not know the 'steer clear' demand is/was as unreliable as you describe. Thank you for that info-I'll need to re-think my position on that portion of my argument.

However, my main point still stands, that if Bad Robot refuses to go ahead with the creative venture in the novels, then why not allow others too. Otherwise, opportunities, good ones will be lost. If the resistance is truly fear of contradiction, conflict with established canon (new or old). I submit that is unavoidable. We could have conflict over anything-even on something as simple as if Kirk's Tunic is Gold or Green, all depends on where you approach this and what your source of information comes from.

You stated I contradicted myself, I do not think so, Bad Robot has slowed the wheels of creative production, in favor of something else...that of which is yet to be known?

This is different than the previous regime. And yes, the previous people in control mishandled their control, damaging the franchise.

Finally I do not think following the Lucasfilm example is a good road to embrace, they after all took legal action against fan fiction, as just one example.

The
S H A T I N A T O R

 

[Greg Cox]

As for Robau, I was under the impression that the movie people simply didn't want anything sequel tie-ins, and since anything with the Kelvin would pretty much have to be a prequel, I don't see where they would have any issue with it.

As I said, an appearance by the PRIME timeline's version of Robau and/or his ship should not be a problem at all. It would not be a sequel or prequel. So why would "the movie people" care?

Who knows? Again, this is all speculation. There is no official rulebook or policy spelling any of this out. Me, I'm just treating the new stuff as off-limits until I'm told otherwise. It's easier that way . . . and God knows there's plenty of other stuff to write about.

 

[Christopher]

However, my main point still stands, that if Bad Robot refuses to go ahead with the creative venture in the novels, then why not allow others too. Otherwise, opportunities, good ones will be lost. If the resistance is truly fear of contradiction, conflict with established canon (new or old). I submit that is unavoidable.

Maybe, maybe not. But it's not my place to say that. They're the ones who've been entrusted with the responsibility for the Star Trek franchise, and they're handling it in the way that makes sense to them. That's the way it works. That's what responsibility means.

I don't think there's any absolute, clear solution for how to approach something like this. If there were, it would be easy, but it isn't. There are a lot of different approaches to tie-in continuity, with different benefits and different drawbacks. It's a judgment call, and the people in charge of the canon are the ones who have the right and responsibility to make that judgment call. Sure, there's going to be second-guessing and armchair-quarterbacking from the fans no matter what decision is made. But that's just it. With so many different opinions on the right thing to do, somebody has to be given the final word.

And right now, it's their call. So if you want to ask what their reasons are for the choices they've made, try asking them. Bob Orci is generally pretty responsive to the fans, but he's not a member of the TrekBBS. You might want to try over on TrekMovie.com -- he posts in the comments there pretty often, I think.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And yes, the previous people in control mishandled their control, damaging the franchise.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Roddenberry, through Arnold, thought he was doing the right thing stopping conventions promoting guest author, Diane Duane, as "The Creator of the Rihannsu". They thought they were protecting then-fledgling TNG when FASA put out a "TNG Sourcebook" without sending it to then-Paramount Licensing for final approvals. They thought they were doing the right thing putting a disclaimer on a single Pocket ST novel (which the editors supposedly interpreted as "Put the disclaimer on any ST novel that doesn't quite fit Gene's vision"). They thought they were doing the right thing removing Konom, Arex and M'Ress from comics set in the movie era. Berman thought it wise to avoid Andorians onscreen because they seemed "hokey" to him. And so on.

If anything, these restrictions, as annoying as they were to fans at the time, may well have strengthened the integrity of the ST franchise, allowing it to proser as long as it did. Had any of these not happened, and 24th century Star Trek still lost popularity after 18 years on the air, people would be pointing to similar incidents and saying "Not enough control was exerted on the franchise".

 

[Maltz]

Regarding the whole Mandalorian arc in SW: TCW, I can understand some people being a bit annoyed they so heavily contradicted what earlier prose novels and comics established. It kind of throws the whole EU (excluding the CW cartoons) into doubt.

 

[Christopher]

^Well, it's hardly the first time. As I recall, the prequel trilogy contradicted what the books and/or comics had established about Boba Fett's backstory, and probably some other things as well. Really, it's always been something of a smokescreen on Lucasfilm's part to claim the books and comics were canonical. They've never hesitated to contradict them in new screen productions any more than Paramount has with Star Trek. The only real difference between the ST and SW approaches to tie-ins -- aside from ST being more honest about what is and isn't canonical -- is that the SW tie-ins are required to be consistent with each other, while with ST tie-ins it's optional. Well, that and the fact that SW canon productions have more frequently drawn on elements from the tie-ins than ST has -- but that's largely because SW has a much smaller canon to draw from and so has more incentive to crib material from the tie-ins.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As I said, an appearance by the PRIME timeline's version of Robau and/or his ship should not be a problem at all. It would not be a sequel or prequel. So why would "the movie people" care?

And, as I said, his history would be identical in both timelines, so any whole novels about Captain Robau and the USS Kelvin, written without the participation/consultation of Bad Robot, may well tread all over their future plans, or even as-yet undiscussed possibilties, just the same as four sequel novels could.

But if a future (i.e. post-2233) version of Robau, the one who can never exist in the Abramsverse because of Robau's onscreen death, were to appear in the prime timeline, Bad Robot's plans would be irrelevant. Why would they be able to prevent an appearance by a character who, in their own creation, is ALREADY DEAD? Who do they think they are, Richard Arnold: The Next Generation?

 

[JD]

Well, as far as I know, Robau and anything that appeared in the movie, even before the universes split, would still be under Bad Robot's control. So they would have to have a say no matter which universe it took place in.

 

[Christopher]

I think some of the reactions here are getting a little excessive, considering that it's all based on speculation. We don't actually know whether or not Robau/Kelvin novels would be okayed. No point getting worked up about something that's only a conjecture and might not even be true.

 

[Sci]

As I said, an appearance by the PRIME timeline's version of Robau and/or his ship should not be a problem at all. It would not be a sequel or prequel. So why would "the movie people" care?

And, as I said, his history would be identical in both timelines, so any whole novels about Captain Robau and the USS Kelvin, written without the participation/consultation of Bad Robot, may well tread all over their future plans, or even as-yet undiscussed possibilties, just the same as four sequel novels could.

But if a future (i.e. post-2233) version of Robau, the one who can never exist in the Abramsverse because of Robau's onscreen death, were to appear in the prime timeline, Bad Robot's plans would be irrelevant. Why would they be able to prevent an appearance by a character who, in their own creation, is ALREADY DEAD? Who do they think they are, Richard Arnold: The Next Generation?

'Cos they're the guys in charge of STAR TREK these days, not Pocket. It's their car now, Pocket is just allowed to drive it sometimes.

 

[F. King Daniel]

GIVE POCKET THE KEYS, PLZ.

Taking a less paranoid view for a second, it could be that one of those four nuTrek novels does cover some of the stuff the next film planned to. And, with JJ's love of secrecy, and considering the blurbs were already published on Amazon and Trekmovie.com, they couldn't just pull one without alerting the world to some of the stuff STXII is set to involve.

 

[Christopher]

Taking a less paranoid view for a second, it could be that one of those four nuTrek novels does cover some of the stuff the next film planned to. And, with JJ's love of secrecy, and considering the blurbs were already published on Amazon and Trekmovie.com, they couldn't just pull one without alerting the world to some of the stuff STXII is set to involve.

Unlikely. To all indications, the novels were pulled long before the filmmakers settled on the plot for the second film.