Questions on the Captain's Logs

[USS Triumphant]

"Conquest Log: Evil Stardate 7.3283..."

"Cool. Cool cool cool."

Just curious. In the MU shouldn't the Federation standard language now be German? If the Nazis won WW2? Or would the Nazis have been the good guys and the Americans the bad guys. And the Nazis lost because they were too compassionate. and merciful. That gives me a headache.

If the Nazis has won WWII and gone on somehow to actually conquer the United States, as well, you have to bear in mind that you're still talking about that the United States had 133 million people, Germany had 66 million, and there was an ocean in between. And English is a much more versatile language. So altogether, it's still possible that the Terran Empire would speak English.

But, I don't think that's where the deviation point is. I think it has something to do with the Eugenics Wars. Some tiny mutation in a bioweapon or bioenhancement used by one faction or another ended up enhancing the aggressive tendencies in our species - just enough to make most of us a*holes.

 

[Captain Rob]

That would probably help explain Zephram Cochrane blowing holes in the Vulcans with his trusty shotgun.

 

[johnnybear]

Alternate reality stories always reveal to us the watcher or reader that both universes were on the same level up until a particular moment! In john Wyndham's Random chance novel or Quest for Love as the movie was called, a physicist is catapulted into an alternate reality after a photon experiment misfires. There he finds he is a famous novelist rather than a scientist and is married to a woman he doesn't love or she love him. (But he does woo her before she dies) but he contacts a scientist there who is in both worlds and together they work out that an event that led to the second world war in this reality didn't happen in theirs! In fact they know of none of earth's recent conflicts and have a stable era of peace. The science isn't as advanced as ours though when the scientist tries to convince the Doctors to operate on his 'wife' by quoting a procedure he knows of but they don't! People seem to dress in a sort of Victorian look and even his good friend in our universe who lost an arm in the Vietnam war still has both arms here and is not exactly the good friend here!
So where do we all think the schism took place in the Mirror Universe? It's hard to believe they were always different because I'm sure if that was so why would there be a Kirk, McCoy or even Spock in their universe on the same ship?
JB

 

[Timo]

That's the cool thing about the Trek version: there's no schism. Everybody simply happens to be evil and lesbian, and always was: the first multicelled creature was based on one cell backstabbing the other, and evolution then went wild when they discovered bisexual reproduction...

Why, then, does the Mirror always so closely match what is being mirrored? Why, naturally because every Mirror is custom-made! There isn't one Mirror Universe, there are as many as there are crossover events. Which is why the Mirror is actually different each time, sometimes featuring cloaking devices as a matter of course, sometimes never having heard of those.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Triumphant]

Everybody simply happens to be evil and lesbian

Boy, I know *I* sure am!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

"Cool. Cool cool cool."

"Hot. Hot hot hot."

But, I don't think that's where the deviation point is.

I don't think the Mirror Universe has a deviation point from the Prime one. If it did, it would be an alternate timeline, not a separate universe. It's just another universe where things are more evil, and things have always been more evil.

 

[UnknownSample]

Yes. I get very frustrated by how that idea of choices splitting off new universes has taken over people's ideas on all this. Everyone in MU deciding on evil behavior each and every day would be quite a coincidence. It's not choice based.

The whole idea of choices splitting off universes which didn't exist before is preposterous. How, why would that happen? I turn left instead of right, and presto, new universe? Makes one feel very powerful.

The MU makes me think choices aren't even possible, that maybe our "good" or "evil" decisions aren't based on us and our individual free will, but based on some personality-shaping quality of the universe one happened to be born into.

 

[Kor]

Yes. Perhaps a cosmic "force" of some kind, controlling our destinies and shaping galactic events. Hmm...

Kor

 

[ZapBrannigan]

The only way the MU can be what it is in "Mirror Mirror" is if that entire universe was created in an instant. The entire MU pops into existence when the landing party beams up during the storm. That's how the same exact individuals could be conceived and born, and grow up to have similar careers. The MU people's memories and history are freshly-created, but seem real to them.

The MU is like a bad photocopy, an imperfect rendition of the prime universe that spawned it.

 

[johnnybear]

As Spock would say, " It is highly illogical that we are all here on the same ship at this time in a universe so similar to our own and yet so different!" "The chances are some 10009978343.3 to one against this being a deviated incident reality and more to it being a separate universal parallel configuration spawned by the ion storm in relation to our own specific existence!"
JB

 

[UnknownSample]

The only way the MU can be what it is in "Mirror Mirror" is if that entire universe was created in an instant. The entire MU pops into existence when the landing party beams up during the storm. That's how the same exact individuals could be conceived and born, and grow up to have similar careers. The MU people's memories and history are freshly-created, but seem real to them.

The MU is like a bad photocopy, an imperfect rendition of the prime universe that spawned it.

Because you say so? Dismiss the idea of parallel universes if you want, which exist and always have existed alongside ours, but that was clearly what they were showing us. And universes suddenly popping into existence is not my idea of a sensible explanation for anything.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Because you say so? Dismiss the idea of parallel universes if you want, which exist and always have existed alongside ours, but that was clearly what they were showing us. And universes suddenly popping into existence is not my idea of a sensible explanation for anything.

My view is that people with such different behavioral patterns would not conceive their children in perfect parallel, resulting in exact duplicates and receiving the same names, and then growing up to have such similar careers.

The duplicate people in the MU had to be flash-copies created off some kind of cosmic reflection of the prime universe, and it would have to occur suddenly and recently for Kirk's party to find such a similar crew. If the MU were as real and as enduring as the Prime U, it would be filled with different individuals.

 

[UnknownSample]

Well, yes, it does seem unlikely for everyone to have such exact counterparts. Your solution just seems even more far fetched to me. Who knows what factor is responsible?

 

[ToddPence]

So aren't there any chronometers on the ISS ENTERPRISE?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

My view is that people with such different behavioral patterns would not conceive their children in perfect parallel, resulting in exact duplicates and receiving the same names, and then growing up to have such similar careers.

The duplicate people in the MU had to be flash-copies created off some kind of cosmic reflection of the prime universe, and it would have to occur suddenly and recently for Kirk's party to find such a similar crew. If the MU were as real and as enduring as the Prime U, it would be filled with different individuals.

Not really supported by anything in the episode itself. Kirk and Scotty say that the ion storm transported them to another universe, not that it created another universe. As Kirk said, it's "something... parallel!"

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Not really supported by anything in the episode itself. Kirk and Scotty say that the ion storm transported them to another universe, not that it created another universe. As Kirk said, it's "something... parallel!"

Instant creation of the MU is not stated in the episode, but it is required for the presence of duplicate people to be possible in a world of very different behaviors. If your parents had conceived on a different day, there would be a sibling instead of you (same egg, different sperm). If they had conceived in a different month (different egg and different sperm), the sibling would be even more dissimilar to you.

The "standard model" big bang theory of universe creation requires an ex nihilo ("from nothing") mechanism. IMO so does the mirror universe, but obviously in a different way entirely.

 

[Timo]

This all seems to be a bit beside the point. If there are parallel universes, by any mechanism, it surely follows that there are an infinite number of them. There thus isn't anything improbable about a universe where Kirk happens to be evil yet still ends up commanding the ship, or Scotty happens to be named Yttocs and always speaks and walks backwards yet still ends up keeping the ship going - they all are by definition equally probable, and the Mirror Universe mechanism can always select one that best fits the "similar but evil" requirement.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Instant creation of the MU is not stated in the episode, but it is required for the presence of duplicate people to be possible in a world of very different behaviors.

In your opinion. You're stating your personal theory as if it's a fact that's supported by the episode itself. It isn't.

If your parents had conceived on a different day, there would be a sibling instead of you (same egg, different sperm). If they had conceived in a different month (different egg and different sperm), the sibling would be even more dissimilar to you.

True. And since all of the regular crew members we see in "Mirror, Mirror" are physically the same people, we can only assume that that's what they are. Sorry if you find that unbelievable, but that's what the episode shows us.

This all seems to be a bit beside the point. If there are parallel universes, by any mechanism, it surely follows that there are an infinite number of them. There thus isn't anything improbable about a universe where Kirk happens to be evil yet still ends up commanding the ship

Exactly. For the sake of a good story, we assume that it's a universe like ours, except the Federation is an evil Empire. And "Mirror, Mirror" is (IMO) a damn good story.

 

[Vger23]

What about my favorite Captain's Log quote?:

"Stardate: Armageddon!" -"Day of the Dove"

 

[ZapBrannigan]

This all seems to be a bit beside the point. If there are parallel universes, by any mechanism, it surely follows that there are an infinite number of them. There thus isn't anything improbable about a universe where Kirk happens to be evil yet still ends up commanding the ship, or Scotty happens to be named Yttocs and always speaks and walks backwards yet still ends up keeping the ship going - they all are by definition equally probable, and the Mirror Universe mechanism can always select one that best fits the "similar but evil" requirement.

Timo, you seem to be alluding to the infinite monkey theorem to justify an MU with duplicates of all cast members, together and doing mostly the same jobs, despite their forefathers living and reproducing under different social conditions for generations. This monkey begs to differ.

Instead of saying that all alternate universes are "equally probable," shouldn't you say that such a near-duplicate Enterprise crew is vastly, exponentially improbable?

If there are an infinite number of parallel universes, then I don't deny the "technically non-zero" possibility of the "Mirror Mirror" MU. But its probability is so small that the "flash-creation of an imperfect copy" universe seems pretty reasonable by comparison.