Questions on canon

[F. King Daniel]

" and interrogate a Ferengi merchant really doesn't fit with the Trek ethos."

We had seen nastier stuff In The Pale Moonlight, much more nastier.

That's not what I meant. The interrogation was fine (and quite amusing with the multiple-choice questioning available), it was the massacre in order to do the questioning.

" but a running massacre through Space Station K7, killing hundreds in order to capture"

Like in Star Wars these details do not have to be canon, just the story and the characters.

The killing isn't a detail, it's the core element of the videogame.

Canon is what's on screen in live-action Trek. That canon is contradictory to begin with (see: "True Q" versus "The Q and the Grey", "Balance of Terror" vs "Minefield" etc) and thus open to interpretation.

Non-canon materials have inspired canon several times (Uhura and Sulu's first names, Vanguard station in TOS-R and George Kirk are all inventions of Trek novels) but to say "X happened but Y didn't" stikes me as rather pointless.

 

[Yevetha]

What if only cutscenes would be canon?

"
Canon is what's on screen in live-action Trek."

I know but this the 21. century with some quality vidogames, i dont see why a trek game if its as good as Mass Effect could not be canon if all kind of bad Voyager episodes are canon.

 

[F. King Daniel]

What if only cutscenes would be canon?

"
Canon is what's on screen in live-action Trek."

I know but this the 21. century with some quality vidogames, i dont see why a trek game if its as good as Mass Effect could not be canon if all kind of bad Voyager episodes are canon.

Canon has nothing to do with quality. It's merely the body of work which Star Trek and it's tie-ins have to adhere to (and as I said, there's a LOT of room for interpretation).

As far as I'm concerned, the novels are as legit Star Trek as the films and episodes. A stamp saying "CANON" would make no difference whatsoever to my enjoyment of them. Ditto the Trek games I've played.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There was mention of a distress call from "a Klingon prison planet", but that's all. Nothing to say that Nero was an inmate

I think we can infer that he was.

Anyone who knows what Rura Penthe is, knows that it *is* the Klingon prison planet; those who don't know, won't care. We can fill in the blanks.

I mean, Nero would have no reason to be near the place if he wasn't an inmate, would he?

Inferring isn't canon. Which is the whole point. Excluding the non-canon deleted scenes (or the spin-off "Star Trek: Nero" comic series), Nero could have been attacking a prison planet for any reason. Getting supplies, causing a distraction, anything.

Ditto Saavik's being half-Romulan. The scene was cut, it's up to the viewer to include it (and/or her expanded backstory in the novels) or not. But it's not canon.

Who cares?

 

[Forbin]

Some people care, some don't.
This is a discussion board. We discuss such things.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think we can infer that he was.

Anyone who knows what Rura Penthe is, knows that it *is* the Klingon prison planet; those who don't know, won't care. We can fill in the blanks.

I mean, Nero would have no reason to be near the place if he wasn't an inmate, would he?

Inferring isn't canon. Which is the whole point. Excluding the non-canon deleted scenes (or the spin-off "Star Trek: Nero" comic series), Nero could have been attacking a prison planet for any reason. Getting supplies, causing a distraction, anything.

Ditto Saavik's being half-Romulan. The scene was cut, it's up to the viewer to include it (and/or her expanded backstory in the novels) or not. But it's not canon.

Who cares?

You're missing the point of the thread discussing canon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The point is, since we will obviously never see Nero again, nothing will ever contradict what we are discussing here. So why NOT fill in the blanks?

Besides, we're not just speculating. Just applying a bit of logic and/or Occam's Razor.

Givens:

- The transmission was from the Klingon prison planet. (STXI dialogue)
- The Klingon prison planet is called Rura Penthe. (STVI dialogue)
- Nero would have no reason to be AT Rura Penthe if he was not an inmate. (Simple logic)

Conclusion: Nero was an inmate at Rura Penthe.

 

[Mysterion]

Boils down to this: if it isn't seen/heard on-screen, it doesn't count in any other episode or movie.

Example: Saavik was intended to be a vulcan-romulan hybrid, but it is never mentioned in any on-air/screen events. Therefore it isn't canon, and Saavik is just a young and emotionally inexperienced vulcan.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The point is, since we will obviously never see Nero again, nothing will ever contradict what we are discussing here. So why NOT fill in the blanks?

Besides, we're not just speculating. Just applying a bit of logic and/or Occam's Razor.

Givens:

- The transmission was from the Klingon prison planet. (STXI dialogue)
- The Klingon prison planet is called Rura Penthe. (STVI dialogue)
- Nero would have no reason to be AT Rura Penthe if he was not an inmate. (Simple logic)

Conclusion: Nero was an inmate at Rura Penthe.

You're missing the point. I'm not telling you what to think. Fill in the blanks however you choose to. But I am telling you that your suppositions aren't canon, by Paramount/CBS's own set of rules.

Will we never see Nero again? I didn't think we'd see Captain Sulu's Excelsior again until "Flashback". Nor the Enterprise-D until "These are the Voyages". Future writers may come along and choose to fill in the blanks in other ways.

 

[The Wormhole]

The point is, since we will obviously never see Nero again, nothing will ever contradict what we are discussing here. So why NOT fill in the blanks?

Besides, we're not just speculating. Just applying a bit of logic and/or Occam's Razor.

Givens:

- The transmission was from the Klingon prison planet. (STXI dialogue)
- The Klingon prison planet is called Rura Penthe. (STVI dialogue)
- Nero would have no reason to be AT Rura Penthe if he was not an inmate. (Simple logic)

Conclusion: Nero was an inmate at Rura Penthe.

The Klingons could have several prison planets, Rura Penthe is just the most well known.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ We also know the Klingons generally do not take prisoners. Rura Penthe was a special case. It's the only Klingon prison planet we have ever heard of, so until we hear differently, it's the only one they have.

 

[Yevetha]

Dot they sen anyone to prioson wo breaks their own laws?

what about slave species?

Dont they have workcamps for them?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm sure the Klingons immediately execute most prisoners, assuming any live long enough to even be taken at all.

 

[Yevetha]

If they execute the prisoner why do they even need Rura Penthe?

 

[F. King Daniel]

^ We also know the Klingons generally do not take prisoners. Rura Penthe was a special case. It's the only Klingon prison planet we have ever heard of, so until we hear differently, it's the only one they have.

Again, that's supposition, not canon. Canon is what's there - a Klingon prison planet called Rura Penthe. You're also supposing that one of the many conflicting bits of canon ("Klingons don't take prisoners", which Kirk said in STII) has more worth than the rest ("Errand of Mercy", "Day of the Dove", STIII and DS9 where we see Klingons taking prisoners). If someone said "Rura Penthe is the Klingons' only prison planet", you'd be correct. But you might as well say "All human cities have a Golden Gate bridge"

That's to say nothing of the fact that the Rura Penthe in STVI and "Judgement" couldn't possibly be the same one in the STXI deleted scenes any more than the STXI's Delta Vega is the same one at the edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man..."

 

[Yevetha]

mAYBE THE kLINOGON MILITARY ORDERED THAT for a short time then they changed that policy of taking no prisoners.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

I think the whole "Klingons don't take prisoners" was from TOS or maybe the early TOS movies. Rura Penthe appeared in the 5th film and onward, right?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think the whole "Klingons don't take prisoners" was from TOS or maybe the early TOS movies. Rura Penthe appeared in the 5th film and onward, right?

"Klingons don't take prisoners" is from "Wrath of Khan", and was also said in "Heart of Glory". Rura Pethe dates back (in universe) at least to the 2150's. Captain Archer was sent there in "Judgement".

Klingons taking prisoners happend in "Errand of Mercy", "Day of the Dove", "Search for Spock" and at least one DS9 episode. It's a big mishmash.

"Klingons don't take prisoners" is as true as "Vulcans don't lie".

 

[The Wormhole]

We have heard of plenty of examples of Klingon prisoners. Off the top of my head, the criminal who helped Sisko and Garak out in In the Pale Moonlight was being held in a Klingon prison, constantly being told that he would be executed "tomorrow." Likewise, when ENT did the story about the Klingon foreheads, a Klingon convict was used as a guinea pig in the experiments, he kept insisting that his prison sentence was over and he was due to be released. I personally find it hard to believe that they were both at Rura Penthe. To me, Rura Penthe is the most infamous prison planet, where only the worst of the worse are sent.

"Klingons don't take prisoners" could just mean they don't take Prisoners of War.

 

[Forbin]

Kirk could have just said it to Saavik to be flip, or to make a point. Or he could have been just repeating an old Starfleet aphorism to encourage better performance.