Question on the Founders

[Iruka]

This comes from a DS9 newbie who has watched roughly half of the first season, but has picked up a number of spoilers from later seasons and wouldn't mind a few more (re: the Dominion War, and so on...).

As I understand it, one of the Dominion's strategies for winning the war was to replace certain key Alpha Quadrant leaders with shapeshifters from their own world; according to the Star Trek Encyclopedia, these replacements couldn't be detected even with sophisticated scanning equipment.

So why not call out the Betazoids, then? Is it ever _stated_ that Betazoids can't read changelings, or is this another of those plot-holes-you-just-have-to-ignore-so-as-not-to-ruin-the-story-type questions (along the lines of "Why didn't Frodo just have the Eagles drop the Ring into Mount Doom?").

Maybe this belongs in the "Biggest Mistakes of the Dominion War" thread...

Iruka

 

[Anthony Sabre]

So why not call out the Betazoids, then? Is it ever _stated_ that Betazoids can't read changelings, or is this another of those plot-holes-you-just-have-to-ignore-so-as-not-to-ruin-the-story-type questions (along the lines of "Why didn't Frodo just have the Eagles drop the Ring into Mount Doom?").

Maybe this belongs in the "Biggest Mistakes of the Dominion War" thread...

Iruka

Actually it was stated that Betazoids can't read the emotions or minds of changelings. In the episode Fascination Lwaxana Troi tells Odo that although she can't read his thoughts, she can tell he is troubled by the look on his face. But that still doesn't let the writers of the hook I guess. Not being able to read the thoughts of someone would also be a give away.

One thing to keep in mind is that those leaders aren't the type of people who would submit to a mind scan anyway. General Martok certainly wouldn't have. Neither would Lovok of the Tal'Shiar. Too much valuable knowledge up there.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One thing to keep in mind is that those leaders aren't the type of people who would submit to a mind scan anyway

Assuming they know they're being scanned.

Anyway, a Betazoid can read emotions without an active scan. Even Deanna, who is only half, can do it.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Anyway, a Betazoid can read emotions without an active scan. Even Deanna, who is only half, can do it.

Sure, but how do they do it? The most senior people who were replaced were not even Fed citizens. General Martok. Lovok, a Romulan Tal'Shiar operative. Rumors of Cardassians on the Detopa Council having been replaced. The highest ranking Fed official I can recall was Admiral Krajensky in The Adversary, a "no name" one episode admiral.

Klingon, Cardassian and Romulan leaders wouldn't have allowed themselves to be anywhere near a Betazoid once the Dominion conflict got under way. At the onset of the conflict there was no alliance between those powers. Klingons broke the Khitomer Accords and the Romulan/Cardie venture was off the books.

 

[Navaros]

Iruka, you bring up excellent points.

There are many things about DS9 that cannot be reasonably explained (Ie: plot holes created by the writers implementing radical changes on the fly and pretending all those changes retcon into the earlier episodes which drastically contradict them; when really, they indisputably do not...but I won't be specific so as not to spoil things for you). What you brought up is another one of those kind of things. It's simply a writing flaw.

Another thing is that the plot point you mention in the OP was featured for a couple of episodes, and then abandoned. It doesn't really make any sense why this plot was abandoned so soon and with no explanation (as if the Founders just stopped all inflitration attempts out of the blue, for no reason whatsoever). On the other hand, I'm thankful that this one plot wasn't dragged on endlessly ad nauseaum as it is in certain other, lesser shows.

 

[Pavonis]

The highest ranking Fed official I can recall was Admiral Krajensky in The Adversary, a "no name" one episode admiral.

Actually, Krajensky was an ambassador, not an admiral. The only admiral that was impersonated by a Changeling was Admiral Leyton, and presumably only for a short period of time.

 

[Myasishchev]

Changelings can replicate thought patterns and emotions; they must, for exactly the reason the OP states--the Federation is crawling with telepaths and the Romulans (and perhaps still the Klingons?) widely use mind probes. The Cardassians apparently don't, preferring torture (what's the deal with that, anyway?).

 

[Anthony Sabre]

The highest ranking Fed official I can recall was Admiral Krajensky in The Adversary, a "no name" one episode admiral.

Actually, Krajensky was an ambassador, not an admiral. The only admiral that was impersonated by a Changeling was Admiral Leyton, and presumably only for a short period of time.

My mistake on that one. Startrek.com listed him as an admiral. I thought he was an ambassador as well.

 

[flemm]

One of the things I enjoy about DS9 is that the war arc evolves over time without necessarily being in the foreground of each episode. Often you have to make inferences in order to understand what has happened. The writers often do not spell it out for you.

An example of this is them Jem Hadar warship recovered by the crew (in early season 5, I think). It is stated that this constitutes a major intelligence breakthrough, but the details of what exactly is learned are never explained. However, by the end of the war arc the Federation has overcome some of the technological advantages that the Dominion had early on. We are left to infer that the salvaged Jem Hadar ship played a role in this. (The ship itself shows up again later, but for other reasons.)

A similar inference can explain why Changeling infiltrators are no longer a major threat by later seasons. In the middle seasons, when this possibility is in the foreground, we see Starfleet developing ways to combat them, such as phaser sweeps. Over time the Federation and its allies would have improved their ability to prevent infiltration and discover any infiltrators already in place.

Rather than focusing constantly on the minutiae of such developments, the writers kept the focus on the characters and the various moral, political and emotional dilemmas they faced.

It's possible to speculate that the use of Betazoid telepathy might have eventually played a role in discouraging infiltration, since we know that this problem grew less and less severe as the war went on. The Battle of Betazed was mentioned as an important moment in the war, so we could even speculate that it was targeted for this reason. The writers never dealt with this kind of thing directly, though, which was the right decision. Trying to cover every last detail of this nature would have ruined the show.

 

[Myasishchev]

The Changeling threat might have become less acute simply because once open warfare began, the scope of choices to be made and manipulated by Changeling agents narrowed significantly. The choices in the DW revolved primarily around the best way to kill Jem'Hadar. Choices that did not involve killing Jem'Hadar, or which were obviously bad methods to kill Jem'Hadar, would be dismissed out of hand.

They were probably therefore relegated to intelligence work instead of manipulation (Romulan praetor: "We surrender!" Tal Shiar dude: "He's a Changeling, get him!"), and no doubt provided a significant strategic advantage to the Dominion, but not one capable of overcoming the advantages held by the Allies--the understanding with the wormhole aliens, the greater industrial base, and their advances in biological warfare. Additionally, a Changeling could probably still do significant damage on a tactical level through sabotage, but they appeared to prefer not to risk their people for such limited gains.

 

[flemm]

The Changeling threat might have become less acute simply because once open warfare began, the scope of choices to be made and manipulated by Changeling agents narrowed significantly. The choices in the DW revolved primarily around the best way to kill Jem'Hadar. Choices that did not involve killing Jem'Hadar, or which were obviously bad methods to kill Jem'Hadar, would be dismissed out of hand.

They were probably therefore relegated to intelligence work instead of manipulation (Romulan praetor: "We surrender!" Tal Shiar dude: "He's a Changeling, get him!"), and no doubt provided a significant strategic advantage to the Dominion, but not one capable of overcoming the advantages held by the Allies--the understanding with the wormhole aliens, the greater industrial base, and their advances in biological warfare. Additionally, a Changeling could probably still do significant damage on a tactical level through sabotage, but they appeared to prefer not to risk their people for such limited gains.

True, and the closing of the wormhole might have left few changelings in the quandrant, not to mention the progress of the disease itself later on.

 

[Anwar]

The Changlings would never have collapsed the wormhole if they feared they'd be abandoning any of their people, and I doubt the Prophets would have just let it happen either. They'd have just made a new wormhole.

 

[flemm]

The Changlings would never have collapsed the wormhole if they feared they'd be abandoning any of their people, and I doubt the Prophets would have just let it happen either. They'd have just made a new wormhole.

The Changelings did not collapse the wormhole, but from "Sacrifice of Angels" onward, the Dominion are unable to bring reinforcements through. Logically this would have affected the movement of Changelings as well, though I can't recall if this is ever specified. Possibly the female founder says something about being stranded in the Alpha Quandrant at some point.

 

[Anwar]

The Prophets weren't allowing any Dominion vessels through the Wormhole anymore, but would they have stopped any of them from going BACK to the Gamma Quadrant?

 

[Iruka]

Actually it was stated that Betazoids can't read the emotions or minds of changelings. In the episode Fascination Lwaxana Troi tells Odo that although she can't read his thoughts, she can tell he is troubled by the look on his face.

Thanks--that's exactly the sort of thing I didn't want to watch through the entire series to find out! And it would've been embarassing not to know, since I'm working on a Troi fic with a changeling villain (which will now have to be reworked somewhat, I suppose... but that's what I get for trying to mix my favorite TNG characters with interesting concepts from a complex, multifaceted show show I've barely seen).

While I'm at it... was it ever definitely stated that Betazoids can't read _Cardassians_? They appear in TNG enough that I think someone would have mentioned it, but then DS9 often contradicts TNG...

Iruka

 

[Anwar]

It was stated in "The Maquis" two-parter that Cardassians are given training to resist telepathy.

 

[happydave]

It's possible to speculate that the use of Betazoid telepathy might have eventually played a role in discouraging infiltration, since we know that this problem grew less and less severe as the war went on. The Battle of Betazed was mentioned as an important moment in the war, so we could even speculate that it was targeted for this reason. The writers never dealt with this kind of thing directly, though, which was the right decision. Trying to cover every last detail of this nature would have ruined the show.

I'd agree that the attack on Betazed probably does work incredibly well with the thought that the Changelings would want to destroy the one race who can detect them.

But I believe racism would also play a hand. As stated above the Cardassians are also trained not to be able to be read emotionally so perhaps the Betaziod people aren't as important as they possibly could be.

In Apocalypse Rising we see Sisko & co go in to unmask a Changling Infiltrator. Now we on DS9 knew Gowron was a changling, but the Klingons would never have listened to us since the Alpha Quadrant was still incredibly fractured up until the final stages of the war. So it's fair to assume that if some Betaziod Starfleet Officers said someone was a changling a lot of the races would have done little about it.