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Question baout that episode about the Pegasus

Flying Spaghetti Monster

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I mean..ok... they are searching an asteroid field for the Pegasus... competing with our favorite friends ..the Romulans...

In order for the to happen wouldn't either the enterprise or the Warbird had have to have crossed the Neutral Zone, there by instigating war?

i don't recall this being mentioned. Doesn't it seem like a big omission?
 
Nope. There are plenty of areas of non-claimed space that both a Romulan and Federation ship could enter into and interact without treaty claims. Space is 3D remember!

Something line an illegal system test would take place FAR from the neutral zone as possible, in unclaimed space.
 
But in "Balance of Terror", the Neutral Zone is claimed to imprison the Romulans from all sides, separating them from the rest of the galaxy. And every other TNG episode suggests that so much as a peek of a pointy-eared head outside the Zone means war.

There are other strange occurrences of Romulans outside the RNZ, though. In DS9 "Paradise", a Romulan vessel spots the runaway runabout, and later our heroes chase that runabout. Shouldn't be possible no matter which side of border the runabout is - no Romulans allowed outside, no Feds allowed inside. Or did the runabout skirt the border so that a Romulan ship safely inside was able to see it?

Of course, Romulans frequently appear outside their Zone in DS9, but always on illegal business or with special dispensation. They also roam outside their turf in VOY, but again supposedly only on illegal business. "The Pegasus" seems the only case anywhere in Trek where the presence of a Romulan ship warrants no "This means war!" posturing.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That was my thinking exactly. If this had happened on other occasions or if there had been a line of dialog explaining it, then I might have understood.

Question, as I haven't seen the episode in forever, but does something similar happen in "Tin Man?"
 
I think it's Kirk's line in BoT that doesn't make sense. The Neutral Zone is just a barrier or space to separate the Romulans from the Federation, how can the Romulans have an Empire if the Federation managed to surround their home system on all sides in all three dimensions?
 
Question, as I haven't seen the episode in forever, but does something similar happen in "Tin Man?"

Romulans are indeed seen outside their Zone there, too. But the episode happens so far away from established Federation space that both sides would probably understand that all laws have been tossed out of the airlock. Whichever side gets Tin Man can dictate terms. And if the Romulans get it, Picard can rest assured that they will destroy the Enterprise to eliminate witnesses, and Starfleet will be none the wiser as to what happened out there.

In contrast, the asteroid belt in "The Pegasus" doesn't seem to be that far out in the sticks. Rather, both sides pretend they are there on legitimate charting business - a pretense that Picard could and should challenge, in order to get rid of the nosy Romulans.

The Neutral Zone is just a barrier or space to separate the Romulans from the Federation

Might be, assuming that Spock was chauvinistically exaggerating when he said what he said. But Spock doesn't sound the sort of guy who would equate the Federation with "the rest of the galaxy"...

how can the Romulans have an Empire if the Federation managed to surround their home system on all sides in all three dimensions?

It would simply be a rather small empire.

(No wonder the Romulans are so pissed off in there.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
It was Kirk who said the Zone separated the Romulans from the rest of the Galaxy, not Spock. In that context maybe it is more believable he was bragging.
 
One would assume the original treaty between Earth/The UFP and Romulus allowed for the latter's reasonable growth. Eventually, though, they would have begun to chafe behind an absolute boundary.

Perhaps the Treaty of Algeron permitted Romulan expansion away from Federation and Klingon space, but retained the Neutral Zone impinging on those two states to curtail the opportunity for further 'incidents.'

Worf also says, in "Tin Man," "The Romulans claim all in their field of vision." The clear implication: Their empire is expansionist, and expanding.
 
One would assume the original treaty between Earth/The UFP and Romulus allowed for the latter's reasonable growth. Eventually, though, they would have begun to chafe behind an absolute boundary.

That might depend on which side won, and by how much. Perhaps the Romulans were really squeezed in tight because the Feds or Earthlings thought that this would be the best way to render them harmless. Angry, perhaps, but harmless.

The Romulan Commander and Centurion speak of having shared many a campaign. Might be Romulans fighting amongst themselves on the surface of a single planet; might be evidence that there is room for interstellar warfare within the Romulan territory. (Or perhaps the two codgers refer to the good old days before the Zone was created?)

Later on, in TNG "The Defector", Admiral Jarok says he has seen hundreds of planets, while by the strict interpretation of the treaty he couldn't have stepped outside the RNZ. Either this means the Zone (at least in the TNG era) encompasses hundreds of planets, or then Jarok simply went on illegal business a lot.

Perhaps the Treaty of Algeron permitted Romulan expansion away from Federation and Klingon space, but retained the Neutral Zone impinging on those two states to curtail the opportunity for further 'incidents.'

Or then the Zone was created between Romulan and Federation holdings, and the Klingons later expanded to rub against it - after which the stretch that lay between Romulans and Klingons became meaningless because the Feds could not enforce it and the other two players had every reason to disregard the old border and try to establish a new one more to their liking.

(To nitpick, the jury is still out on whether the Zone was established by the Treaty of Algeron, or by some other treaty. All we know from "The Pegasus" is that Algeron bans cloaking and has kept the peace since the early 24th century. And both of these attributes actually speak against Algeron being the original treaty, because the original one was from the 22nd rather than the 24th century, and there shouldn't have been cloaks in existence back then, and thus no reason to ban them.)

Worf also says, in "Tin Man," "The Romulans claim all in their field of vision." The clear implication: Their empire is expansionist, and expanding.

A very good point. Worf might refer to what takes place between the Romulans and Klingons on their shared border, though, without implying violation of the Romulan/Fed border treaties.

As for "claiming all within vision", this might be how the original Fed/Rom treaty was formulated, too. Perhaps the Zone actually arrogantly bisected the galaxy so that Feds got one half, Romulans the other? Within those halves, the players could do as they pleased, but they couldn't interfere with the other half. However, such an arrangement would be impossible to enforce with asteroid fortresses... And "Balance of Terror" seems to suggest that the treaty truly was being enforced, and wasn't merely a dead letter.

In the end, different writers of Romulan episodes obviously thought differently about the treaty and the Zone. But then again, we know from episodes like "The Defector" that the Romulans themselves change their thinking more often than they change underwear. Perhaps there are alternating policies of blatant defiance and meek submission, and the Feds tolerate the former because the Romulans generally learn to prefer the latter when their expeditions to the Outside turn out disastrously.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I was always under the impression that the Romulans like the Klingons and the Federation,had their own space comprised of many planets. If you imagine the Federation space shaped like a circle (looking a the galaxy at an overhead view) then the klingons were, perhaps onteh west side, their own east borner adjacent to the west side of the circle with a 5 LY gap between the two, which was the neutral zone, and east of the Federation Circle was Romulan Space, also witha 5 LY gap for the TNZ there. All three nearly meet up at the northern most part of the circle, which is where Nimbus 3 is. I imagine that the Klingons are free to expand to their west and the Rommy's are free to expand to the east.

space.jpg


That is how I always pictured it. Other zones like the Cardassians may be either on different planes (beneath the fed or the klingons or the romulans)or within federation territory though not part of the feds (like the Tholians)
 
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Then again, our Federation heroes are always free to explore deep space, so it wouldn't do to have them constrained by enemies on all sides. In contrast, we could have the Romulans or the Klingons encased by their enemies, and that wouldn't matter because they aren't big on exploring the unknown but are famous for fighting with their neighbors.

FWIW, most existing maps, including some onscreen, seem to suggest that both Klingons and Romulans sit on the "right", antispinward side of the Federation, with the Romulans closer to the galactic core. The "left" side is then free for smaller players like Cardassians, and for unexplored territory. Earlier maps had the one-per-side arrangement you prefer, though.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I assume the Treaty of Alergon did not establish TNZ. If it banned a Federation cloaking device, then it must have been drafted after the Federation knew the Romulans had one. From what I remember, they seemed somewhat surprised by it in BoT.
 
In ENT, everybody and his idiot cousin had an invisibility device or a holographic camouflage amounting to the same thing. In light of that, it would be quite possible for the original Fed/Rom peace treaty to have a clause concerning cloaking devices.

The only bump on that road is "Balance of Terror" where everybody does seem taken completely by surprise by the very concept of invisibility. All the subsequent TOS and TNG episodes and movies could be taken as saying that invisibility is an ancient art, really.

Perhaps we should argue that, while many species have cloaks of inivisibility that operate to varying degrees of efficacy, Kirk and his bridge crew had not fought in any campagins where this technology would have been used. Their skills and knowledge might be dulled by a long period of peace; even if the original Romulan War had featured the extensive use of invisibility devices, Kirk might not remember this because he barely seems to remember there was such a war in the first place.

Indeed, from the looks of it, the Romulan War may have been a tiny little skirmish that the history books barely remember, best compared to the Boer War which was soon overshadowed by World Wars and the like. It would be no wonder if late 20th century officers had no knowledge of the guerilla tactics utilized in the Boer War, not even when deployed on theaters where such tactics were now in use. And if a bunch of such officers under, say, UN aegis was deployed to quell a Boer uprising in, say, the Republic of South Africa of the late 1990s, it's no wonder they would feel a little lost at the very concept of a Boer, let alone any trademark Boer tactics.

Sure, Lieutenant Stiles had a personal interest in that queer little war of yore. But he might have been wary because of the disdain and distrust shown towards him, and not willing to tell his captain "Sir, just to clarify to everybody here that you are an ignorant idiot, don't you know that the Romulan elite special forces already used a similar technique in the war a century ago?"...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Spock said that cloaking was theoretical, not totally unheard of. Since they saw races involved in the Time War use cloaks in ENT that was where they got the theory from, they just didn't know how to do it since it was a future technology. By TOS they figured it out.
 
That's a valid way to spin the semantics, I guess.

The problem is, rather than merely saying that invisibility is theoretically possible for the Federation, Spock should have reminded everybody that invisibility (and other visual obfuscation) was practically possible for the Romulans a hundred years prior, and in fact something of a trademark of the species.

But personally I'd rather lose "Balance of Terror" than the sum total of the other cloaking stories. It seems implausible that nobody would have come up with invisibility in this fantastical future of Trek yet. And I don't mean Federation scientists - I mean the adversaries of the week who sometimes come from cultures hundreds of thousands of years older than the Federation. Kirk should have been running into advanced technology like that every fifth week or so, rather than just once or twice per season.

I mean, after we saw (didn't see!) the cloak in "Balance of Terror", we saw Klingons catch Kirk pants down in "Errand of Mercy" - with the help of a cloak? We then saw Romulans use an improved cloak in "Enterprise Incident" and apparently lay a cloaked ambush in "Deadly Years". Bele's scoutship was invisible as well. The Thasian ship also snuck up to our heroes undetected in "Charlie X"... And plenty of other advanced aliens performed disappearing tricks with ease.

So invisibility was happening a lot around Kirk during his five-year mission. Why had he not run into it before?

Timo Saloniemi
 
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