Question about the TMP theme tune

[TK421]

Am I going crazy? (Don't answer that)

I recently got hold of the TMP anniversary sound track, and while excellent, the main theme tune seemed fast to me, it sounded more like the theme tune used for TNG.

My recollection of TMP on the big screen was that the theme tune went at a much slower pace.

Did I imagine it?

 

[Opus]

TK421 said:
Am I going crazy? (Don't answer that)

I recently got hold of the TMP anniversary sound track, and while excellent, the main theme tune seemed fast to me, it sounded more like the theme tune used for TNG.

My recollection of TMP on the big screen was that the theme tune went at a much slower pace.

Did I imagine it?

Well firstly, TMP's theme is the theme used by TNG.

TMP's theme was presented at several different speeds during the movie. It was performed at a march tempo, a la TNG, for its openning and closing credits. It was also performed at slower speeds during more dramatic moments such as the long Enterprise fly-over at the beginning of the movie by Kirk and Scott, and the final fly-by of the Enterprise at the end of the movie right before the closing credits.

So, in a way, you didn't imagine it.

 

[TK421]

My bad, I realize it's the same. It's the opening march I could have sworn was slower...

 

[Maurice]

The version used in the film is a different take than that on the soundtrack album. I have both. It's slightly different and mixed differently.

 

[Captain59]

My favorite version is the opening to Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. It's slightly different with a cool lead-in, and one of the few things I like about that movie.

 

[Maurice]

The Klingon music in the film is also a different take than on the soundtrack album. What may not be clear to most consumers is that "Original Sountrack" albums for films are often concert arrangements of the material, often recorded at the same time as the actual scoring, but which are not the actual recordings used in the film.

 

[TK421]

Oh I didn't know that. Thanks!

 

[Indysolo]

DS9Sega said:
The Klingon music in the film is also a different take than on the soundtrack album.

I don't believe that statement is correct. What are the sections that you are hearing that you think are different?

DS9Sega said:
What may not be clear to most consumers is that "Original Sountrack" albums for films are often concert arrangements of the material, often recorded at the same time as the actual scoring, but which are not the actual recordings used in the film.

The only "concert arrangement" on the TMP album is "Ilia's Theme" and even that I think might have been planned as the film's overture. The version heard on the original 1979 release is a shorter take than the album version, but the full version (as heard on the album) is heard on The Director's Edition.

The "Main Title" on the album is a different take than the original theatrical release (actually it's 2 takes edited together). Goldsmith preferred the album opening and that was used for The Director's Edition.

The expanded album also uses some different takes, such as "The Force Field" and at least part of "Games" (when Spock nerve pinches the guy at the airlock).

Neil

 

[Kegek]

Indysolo said:
The version heard on the original 1979 release is a shorter take than the album version, but the full version (as heard on the album) is heard on The Director's Edition.

Definitely one of the things better abut the Director's Edition. I love a good overture. If there's one thing I bemoan about modern film, it's the death of the overture and the entr'acte.

Not such a big fan of the starscape, though...

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I really like the overture for TMP...

 

[Maurice]

Indysolo said:

DS9Sega said:
The Klingon music in the film is also a different take than on the soundtrack album.

I don't believe that statement is correct. What are the sections that you are hearing that you think are different?

The bit around when the torpedoes are fired, specifically, sounds slightly different. The tempo throughout feels slightly different to me as well.

Indysolo said:

DS9Sega said:
What may not be clear to most consumers is that "Original Sountrack" albums for films are OFTEN concert arrangements of the material...

The only "concert arrangement" on the TMP album is "Ilia's Theme"...

All of which is fine and good, but my point wasn't about the specific takes you mention, but that on soundtack albums tracks "are OFTEN concert arrangements".

 

[trevanian]

Biggest bummer about John Williams scores is that he always rerecords for album. He messed up JFK and RAIDERS something fierce with his albums (and the sucker never released a full BLACK SUNDAY, which pisses me off almost as much.)

The surprising thing to me about TMP's main theme is that just about everybody messes it up when they go back to it. I don't like TFF's take on it, and TNG's is just fucking horrible. I've even heard other Goldsmith conducted versions of it and they all have strange fades and a lack of vibrancy. Sort of like his PATTON theme -- they all sound like somebody has a finger on the record slowing it down just a little to wreck it (like hearing THE VENTURES do HAWAII 5-0, extremely painful.)

 

[Deleted 2]

^ You sound like someone spoiled by recordings, trevanian. Different performances aren't supposed to sound the same as the original.

 

[Indysolo]

trevanian said:
Biggest bummer about John Williams scores is that he always rerecords for album. He messed up JFK and RAIDERS something fierce with his albums (and the sucker never released a full BLACK SUNDAY, which pisses me off almost as much.)

Raiders was not a re-recording either. The original album had a pitch problem (it ran slow) and some of the cues were edited, but that's par for the course for a Williams album.

The 1995 re-issue, while not complete, eliminates the original album edits and runs at the correct speed. It's still not complete but sounds very nice.

And DS9Sega, "Klingon Battle" on the album and in the film is the same.

Neil

 

[Maurice]

Indysolo said:
And DS9Sega, "Klingon Battle" on the album and in the film is the same.

You may be correct, but are you basing this on information you have, or your ear? Because there are minor differences...albeit those might be related to work done in the film editing.

 

[Indysolo]

DS9Sega said:

Indysolo said:
And DS9Sega, "Klingon Battle" on the album and in the film is the same.

You may be correct, but are you basing this on information you have, or your ear?

A little bit of both. I was able to confirm what my ear already told me.

Neil

 

[trevanian]

Indysolo said:

trevanian said:
Biggest bummer about John Williams scores is that he always rerecords for album. He messed up JFK and RAIDERS something fierce with his albums (and the sucker never released a full BLACK SUNDAY, which pisses me off almost as much.)

Raiders was not a re-recording either. The original album had a pitch problem (it ran slow) and some of the cues were edited, but that's par for the course for a Williams album.

Neil

The part right before the colonel jumps down on Indy in the truck and shoots him sure sounds a lot flatter and less effective on the original album (and the later cd) than it has on any version of the film that I've seen. Maybe the sound mixer put some OOMF into the theatrical version that wasn't actually part of the music recording?

As to the poster talking about me being spoiled by the albums, it is the reverse. The soundtracks in the theater were wonderful, spoiling me for the albums that followed (or in some cases, did not follow.)

 

[Kegek]

Some subsequent releases go both ways. My CD of Williams' Return of the Jedi score has both a symphonic ending he recorded to one movement, and the ending used in the film.

It's interesting to see how the scores differ, though. Goldsmith's score was, ahem, butchered in Alien.

 

[Deleted 2]

trevanian said:
As to the poster talking about me being spoiled by the albums, it is the reverse. The soundtracks in the theater were wonderful, spoiling me for the albums that followed (or in some cases, did not follow.)

Films aren't recordings?

Different perfomances sound differently. That's the great thing about having real people blow on and pluck pieces of wood, snare and brass.

I've always thought that it's best to try to see the virtues of each individual performance.

 

[trevanian]

I have often found that sound and picture together form a unique sense-memory, and as a result, any variation on that (time-compressed broadcasts, cropping of picture, that kinda thing) really impacts my appreciation.

Likewise, when I usually listen to soundtracks (which is probably two-thirds of my music preferences), I am trying to tap into that unique sense memory again, especially with films that have a great deal of resonance for me.

When I buy a soundtrack album, I buy it to get as close a recreation of the theatrical experience as possible. though lately, I'm finding that I'm better off just playing the dvd, since at least I am relatively sure of what I will be getting that way.

I do admit, I would LOVE to hear jazz versions of Williams' SW themes ... I think I'd like them better than the originals.