Question about the PD

[Computer]

In Insurrection we see the "little people" whos name escapes me which Troi mentions something to the effect of "Remember they have a significantly less advanced technology, they only achieved warp drive last year"

Since the Prime Directive states the Federation cannot interfere in the natural development of a society does the rule still apply to a member? If it does then that defeats any benefits a world would have from joining the Federation to begin with wouldnt it?

And if the PD does not apply then arent they actually in violation of their own rules?

 

[Venardhi]

I think the idea was that they were just then joining the federation, and had only recently been introduced into the galactic neighborhood, their membership was fast-tracked due to the Dominion war if I'm not mistaken. . . but then I haven't seen that movie since it first came out on video.

 

[Timo]

Since the Prime Directive states the Federation cannot interfere in the natural development of a society does the rule still apply to a member?

Obviously not. Member societies are supposed to follow some general UFP guidelines, although we hear precious little about what those guidelines would be. We know members have to give up their indigenous militaries, can't hold to a caste system, and are expected to honor a Federation Constitution. That's major interfering already.

If it does then that defeats any benefits a world would have from joining the Federation to begin with wouldnt it?

Indeed. But the PD seems to only apply to societies that are not already under the influence of outside interstellar forces - there would be no point for the Feds to hold back from interfering if the Ferengi and the Klingons were already interfering at full throttle. And membership in the UFP would of course require knowledge of the interstellar community. So it's quite natural to have the PD apply to the point when a species achieves interstellar contact (which in Trek is more or less the same as discovering warp speed), and the membership eligibility to apply from that point forward, without any sort of conflict or overlap there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[AviTrek]

Timo said:

Since the Prime Directive states the Federation cannot interfere in the natural development of a society does the rule still apply to a member?

Obviously not. Member societies are supposed to follow some general UFP guidelines, although we hear precious little about what those guidelines would be. We know members have to give up their indigenous militaries, can't hold to a caste system, and are expected to honor a Federation Constitution. That's major interfering already.

It's not interfering. Those are signs that the civilization is advanced enough to join the Federation. The civilization needs to make those changes on its own before it is eligible.

 

[Timo]

Sorry, I can't accept that. No species would be expected to give up its indigenous military as a prerequisite for joining - such an act is not "civilized" by any definition of the term, not even the UFP one, because obviously the UFP as a whole does maintain an indigenous military and thinks it's a good thing.

So joining up involves at least one issue where the member culture is being interfered with: they are dictated how to run their defenses. And that's major interfering, when you consider that the members could be as diverse as pacifist Vulcans, argumentative Tellarites or warrior-spirited Andorians.

To be sure, we don't get the impression that the rules dictated on members would be particularly harsh. In TOS, the Ardanans could run a slave labor racket for what sounds like decades at least. Vulcans get to practice ritual violence up to and including murder. Local authorities of member worlds can complain if Starfleet tries to mess with them and racistically enforce human ideals.

But overall, as the Bajoran example of military-disbanding and caste-abandoning tells us, the members aren't free to continue all their merry ways, either. Their societies have to adapt in several significant respects.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[A beaker full of death]

Computer said:
does the rule still apply to a member?

Of course not.

Timo said:
Sorry, I can't accept that. No species would be expected to give up its indigenous military as a prerequisite for joining

Does Texas have its own army?

 

[Sci]

Computer said:
In Insurrection we see the "little people" whos name escapes me which Troi mentions something to the effect of "Remember they have a significantly less advanced technology, they only achieved warp drive last year"

Since the Prime Directive states the Federation cannot interfere in the natural development of a society does the rule still apply to a member? If it does then that defeats any benefits a world would have from joining the Federation to begin with wouldnt it?

And if the PD does not apply then arent they actually in violation of their own rules?

You are remembering the Evorans. Evora was not described as being a new Federation Member State; rather, it was described as being a new "protectorate." As I understand it, a protectorate is a foreign, sovereign state that another state has agreed to defend from other foreign threats. In other words, it's a type of alliance.

Re: Giving up local military. The line from "Rapture" that implies this is actually somewhat ambiguous. It refers to the Bajoran Militia needing to be "absorbed" by Starfleet. But that doesn't mean that the Militia ceases to exist; it could mean that the Militia continues to exist as a division of Starfleet. Or it could just mean that their operations are incorporated into the Federation's overall defense infrastructure.

A beaker full of death said:

Timo said:
Sorry, I can't accept that. No species would be expected to give up its indigenous military as a prerequisite for joining

Does Texas have its own army?

Sort of. The State of Texas maintains control of the Texas Army National Guard and the Texas Air National Guard. It's entirely possible that Federation Member States maintain their native defense forces as divisions of the overall Federation Starfleet, in the same way that state national guards function within the overall United States Armed Forces.

As for the PD.

Keep in mind that the Prime Directive is not Federation civil law. Rather, it is Federation Starfleet General Order One -- in other words, a Starfleet regulation that covers what steps Starfleet may or may not take unilaterally, without orders from the Federation government. Indeed, we know from "Angel One" that Federation citizens who are not Starfleet officers may engage in acts that would be considered PD violations were they in SF.

We know from DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," however, that the Federation Charter contains a provision banning interfering in the internal affairs of foreign sovereign states by the UFP. That's as far as we know Federation noninterference rules go in terms of civil law, though.

 

[Computer]

Sci But during their introduction to Captain Picard the leader says "We are so honored to be accepted within the great Federation family" I took this as meaning a full member.

Then again you have Japan which is not permitted to have a standing military but is a protectorate of the United States without being a member of the Union.

 

[Sci]

Computer said:
Sci But during their introduction to Captain Picard the leader says "We are so honored to be accepted within the great Federation family" I took this as meaning a full member.

The Evoran leader was obviously speaking symbolically. Being "accepted into the great Federation family" doesn't necessarily mean being a Member State -- it's a flowery sort of language that could just as easily apply to a foreign state that has just gained protectorate status. But the film very clearly describes them as protectorates, not members.

For what it's worth, though, the novel Articles of the Federation and an earlier story in the Starfleet Corps of Engineers series establishes that Evora became a Member State in short time.

Then again you have Japan which is not permitted to have a standing military but is a protectorate of the United States without being a member of the Union.

Erm. That's not quite accurate.

And to the best of my knowledge, the US has no legal protectorates, though there are numerous countries that the United States is officially or unofficially committed to defending.

 

[Timo]

Sorry, I can't accept that. No species would be expected to give up its indigenous military as a prerequisite for joining

Bad wording, sorry. What I mean was that nobody could be expected to give up its military merely in HOPES of joining. The analogy would be Cuba or Canada disarming unilaterally and completely in hopes of becoming the 51st state at some point in the future. The Federation does not hold disarmament as an ideal, and the following of this ideal as a prerequisite for membership - it merely expects subservience from the militaries it absorbs.

As those who do become members are forced to abandon their militaries (or at least Bajor was, and we never quite heard of a "national guard" elsewhere in the UFP either), it should be argued that the UFP massively dictates important things for its members.

Keep in mind that the Prime Directive is not Federation civil law. Rather, it is Federation Starfleet General Order One

Alternately, the PD is a complex civilian law, and GO1 is a Starfleet regulation that says that Starfleet personnel must obey this civilian law to its full extent (even though they are exempt from the full effect of a number of other laws, such as "do not kill").

Indeed, we know from "Angel One" that Federation citizens who are not Starfleet officers may engage in acts that would be considered PD violations were they in SF.

Rather, word by word, we know that the crew of an interstellar vessel that is not a starship does not have to follow the PD in certain circumstances. We can speculate that what you say is the underlying truth, but the wording in "Angel One" leaves open other interpretations as well.

Not that I'd actually disagree with anything discussed above. Just nitpicking as usual.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[3D Master]

Members do not have to give up local protection. What they would have to give up would be any military that is meant to wage a war in other interstellar fields of war. Members can still protect themselves from attack, but they can no longer declare war and invade other territories. That section of their forces gets absorbed into Starfleet, and any wars that get declared and fought will be done by Starfleet.

This is rather obvious; other wise any (new) member can carole the Federation into fighting any war for them by attacking their targets and then demanding the mutual defense pact gets uphold and Starfleet gets brought in to smash the enemy.

Vulcans for example, have their own defenses, and even their own science and intelligence services. They essentially operate their own Starfleet.