Quality of Acting

[jk82]

I recently watched the entire original Star Trek series for the first time after it became available on Netflix in July. Previously I only sporadically watched a few DS9 episodes, and I did see the 2009 Star Trek movie, which I liked quite a bit. Honestly I am not a trekkie and am so not qualified to be a trekkie. But having finished watching the TOS, I must admit that this old TV series (to me it does not feel dated at all) is much much better and far more interesting than the recent movie (to a large extent a generic action film, albeit a well done one), and Mr. Shatner a much more appealing and compelling Captain Kirk than his younger counterpart in the 2009 movie.

As just a novice who “stumbled” across this series, I am mystified by the fact that there exists a large contingent of people who find delight in disparaging Mr. Shatner's acting in TOS. To me, he is the reason why TOS is great and why it is so much better than the 2009 movie. His Captain Kirk is passionate, courageous but nowhere near as “hotheaded” as many accuse him of. He can be intelligent, calm, composed collected and cool when situation calls for serious leadership, and warm and lighthearted on other occasions. Mr. Shatner’s crisp sharp delivery is fascinating to listen to (he has a fine voice), and his acting is very strong (I went back to his other works after watching TOS, and was pleasantly surprised by many of them). On top of that he is also incredibly charismatic: He has a twinkle in his eyes, a sense of humor (directly quoting Mr. Nimoy) and a charming smile (or “smirk” as some detractors may refer to). That is perhaps why Mr. Shatner embodies Captain Kirk, and all others that followed could only wish they were him. I cannot tolerate overacting, but I don't find him overact that often in TOS. In Season 1 and 2 he is often subdued and calm. By Season 3 the quality of the show has diminished, but I think his enthusiastic effort manages to save a few episodes from turning mundane or even truly awful (though he is not successful in rescuing all of them).

When I saw the 2009 movie, I liked Mr. Spock a lot better than Kirk. In that film Kirk is a bit annoying and whiny (Mr. Pine’s voice is, unfortunately, not his strong suit and often sounds whiny). When it comes to TOS, I wholeheartedly embrace Captain Kirk. Of course, Mr. Nimoy’s Spock is a delight to watch and Mr. Kelley’s Bones is endearing as well. The three lead actors in TOS share tremendous amount of chemistry, and I often laugh out at their exchanges with each other. But I think without Mr. Shatner, the show would not have been good. He is to me the heart and soul of TOS.

I understand that due to the success of the show all regular actors involved have become immensely popular, and there appears to be some animosity and complaints from the supporting cast. Although a couple of the supporting actors are very solid, I simply don’t think by not focusing on any of them anything has been taken away from the show. It’s not like when watching LOTR I secretly wished if only I could see less of Frodo Baggins …

 

[Winterwind]

Welcome to the forums jk82. And, in my humble opinion, an excellent first post that I find myself very much in agreement with.

 

[Saxman1]

jk82: I agree 100% with all but Pine - I did like him as Kirk. I don't think he was quite as strong as Spock or Bones, but he was better than I expected. After all, he is playing a role originated by The Shat! I say this as a huge Shatner fan.

LOTR: Frodo is DEFINITELY the weak link IMHO! Thank you! It seemed all he did was whine and faint while Sam kissed his feet. That was just WEIRD, but I thought his British accent coming and going was pretty amusing!

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

jk82 I truly wish the Shat were around to read that post. A better tribute to the man's ability I've never read. You've truly captured what made his contribution to Star Trek a truly indispensable one.

 

[plynch]

TOS Kirk is the hero archetype. He springs fully formed from our collective unconscios via GR's writing.. What do we know of his upbringing, psychological motivations, etc.? Pretty much nada. Good.

I do get that Piney-Kirk was trying to show us we can choose who we want to be - victim/schmuck or hero. But it reminded me of the backstory added to Depp's Wonka about how mean his daddy was. Too much psycho-explaining of why a person is as he or she is.

In my opinion.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

I agree with you about Depp's Wonka. The back story pussified him. Made him a loser. Gene Wilder's Wonka was mysterious, a little scary and OTT wacky! He was a real hoot. Depp was a bit of a buzz kill.

I do think that Pine's Kirk has a far more effective back story than that of Depp's Wonka. His was a real Rocky story. Zero to hero. I was rooting for Pine's Kirk to show us that no matter what universe we're in James T. Kirk is the man. And he didn't let me down. YMMV of course.

 

[Nurse Marmalade]

As much as I like Shatner's Kirk, I do wish the other co-stars in TOS would've had more screen time, particularly DeForest Kelley and James Doohan.

De was a natural at being Dr. McCoy, but he was also wonderful at being nasty SOBs in his earlier acting roles in westerns. There was a lot more to De's acting skills than always being a "good guy."

As for Doohan...I really like his sensitive and humorous portrayal of Scotty. I feel that there could've been much more to his character that we never got to see. I kind of wish TOS had been allowed to have a fourth and fifth season so we could get to know Scotty better.

 

[Daggin]

Regardless of how one chooses to cut the specifics of the cast's acting....well, for me, and countless others.....what Bill and Leonard and De and the others collectively placed there for us on screen, became the basis of so many wonderful memories, and shows that have been watched, and re-watched a billion times....the first trek of all, without which no others would exist. For me, they did just fine....

 

[cblmc1296]

I must also give kudos to jk82. A well thought out and eloquent post to be sure.

I have always been in the camp that feels The Shat was a better actor in TOS than most people give him credit for. I find his portrayal of Kirk to be utterly believable in most episodes and, even though there were a few stinkers near the end, he manages to give some wonderful performances in the third season.

I will say that it's probably unfair to compare him to Sir Patrick as their training is so very different, as is the nature of some of their early (non-Shakespearian) roles. I don't think one is any better than the other - just different and both quite good.

 

[jk82]

Welcome to the forums jk82. And, in my humble opinion, an excellent first post that I find myself very much in agreement with.

Thank you, Captain Josan and everybody else, for the welcome. I am a little embarrassed that I am still not familiar with the world of Star Trek. Hopefully I am not intruding here… I only wish I had seen TOS earlier so I could have been better prepared or equipped for having decent conversations with fans here.

jk82: I agree 100% with all but Pine - I did like him as Kirk. I don't think he was quite as strong as Spock or Bones, but he was better than I expected.

Believe me I saw the movie more than once. I was dragged to the movie by my friends, found myself like it, then saw it periodically afterwards on TV. For a while it was my favorite background movie when I was doing chores (all those explosions made my cooking extra exciting). But then again, it did not make me try to look up everything about Kirk or Spock on Wikipedia or youtube. Even if the characters names had been changed to Han Solo, Mr. Anderson, Colt McCoy it would probably have made little difference to me. I liked it as a good action movie with a simple plot and some good fun characters, and I am sure it had something to do with me clicking that beautiful blue picture with a stylish little starship in it on Netflix.

As for Pine, I was just feeling mostly indifferent and a little annoyed by his voice. When he was giving orders in the final scenes I did not find him convincing as a leader. I saw him in Unstoppable and he also sounded pretty whiny there. I had this silly notion that a captain’s voice had to convey clear and absolute authority in serious situations. In fact, my most favorite line from the movie happens to be: “I am not the captain, you are,” delivered by Captain Pike! However, the movie is only 2 hours long, Pine will certainly have more chances to explore his character as “a real captain” in the future. So as for now I am not proclaiming Mr. Pine to be a bad “Kirk”. I am just saying when I first saw the movie he was definitely not my favorite character, and back then I wasn’t even comparing him to Mr. Shatner since I had not seen TOS.

jk82 I truly wish the Shat were around to read that post. A better tribute to the man's ability I've never read. You've truly captured what made his contribution to Star Trek a truly indispensable one.

Mr. Shatner’s performance genuinely affected me. Due to my stupidity and ignorance, I never managed to watch any of the reruns on TV(one of my friends being a DS9 fan was solely responsible for my extremely limited Star Trek TV exposure). My ignorance lasted until 2 episodes into TOS: I realized I made a terrible mistake for not watching the show sooner. A few episodes later I was completely hooked and simply could not stop watching. By then I understood why Captain Kirk is considered an icon. 80 episodes later I found myself wanting more, so I started watching the whole series all over again, and again…

Mr. Shatner’s performance is of course very much responsible for my odd behavior. And because of Mr. Shatner, I saw “The Captains”, a documentary directed by him (some part of it moved me to tears) and “Mind Meld” which features a candid, insightful conversation between Mr. Nimoy and Mr. Shatner. I also picked up “Star Trek Memories” and “Up Until Now”. Will read them this weekend.

 

[Nurse Marmalade]

Mr. Shatner’s performance genuinely affected me. Due to my stupidity and ignorance, I never managed to watch any of the reruns on TV(one of my friends being a DS9 fan was solely responsible for my extremely limited Star Trek TV exposure). My ignorance lasted until 2 episodes into TOS: I realized I made a terrible mistake for not watching the show sooner. A few episodes later I was completely hooked and simply could not stop watching. By then I understood why Captain Kirk is considered an icon. 80 episodes later I found myself wanting more, so I started watching the whole series all over again, and again…

Mr. Shatner’s performance is of course very much responsible for my odd behavior. And because of Mr. Shatner, I saw “The Captains”, a documentary directed by him (some part of it moved me to tears) and “Mind Meld” which features a candid, insightful conversation between Mr. Nimoy and Mr. Shatner.

Really well-put! I think Shat is often unfairly slammed for his acting and line delivery. I can not--and would not--want to imagine any other actor in his place. His Kirk is a captivating character to watch and is most deservedly a pop culture icon...not to mention one of my own personal (fictional) heroes.

As for starting late in TOS... Don't feel too bad. I always used to avoid Trek just "because" until my significant other got me hopelessly addicted a few years back. Better late than never!!

 

[Winterwind]

I've even managed to get my gf watching TOS and it's partly humouring me and partly due to Shatner. In fact, her reaction to her first episode was literally like this:

Her "Oh my god! Who is that? He's so handsome!"

Me "That's William Shatner."

Her "Who?"

Me "William Shatner. Boston Legal. Denny Crane."

Her "Him? But... but he's so young... so good looking... that's him?"

It may not be about the acting for her but at least she's watching TOS.

 

[Nurse Marmalade]

^ That's hilarious, Josan. Bill Shatner was a total hunk. He's walking eye candy so I totally understand your GF's point of view. Make sure she gets to see lots of his shirtless episodes too!

 

[Saxman1]

We are doing a TOS rewatch and the kids made me skip "The Menagerie." They said they wanted to see Captain Kirk, NOT Captain Pike as "Pike's boring except for the last movie!" They REALLY don't like the cast of "The Menagerie"/"The Cage" at all except for Spock.

While decent in the pilot, I don't think Hunter had the acting chops to pull off a series lead. He really wasn't leading man material IMHO. I think he was a good character actor and secondary star in such films as John Wayne/John Ford's "The Searchers," but Star Trek would have likely folded after half a season or maybe one season with him in the lead. If you doubt my point, just compare "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before." Even without DeForest Kelly's priceless McCoy as part of the triangle to play off of, Shatner still manages to electrify the screen with his acting and charisma while Hunter plays angry and subdued in "The Cage," his two calling cards.

 

[A beaker full of death]

^ I just can't watch the Cage without seeing Hunter as the petulent and whiney Martin Pawley,

 

[T'Girl]

Try watching it while viewing Captain Pike as Jesus.

 

[Saxman1]

Try watching it while viewing Captain Pike as Jesus.

The Pawley character in "The Searchers" helped the Duke realize he couldn't kill his niece because she was supposedly "ruined" by being kidnapped and raised by Native Americans, a rather advanced topic for a 1950's film. Director John Ford was way ahead of the times he worked in in many ways. Having said that, Hunter is pretty whiny in that film. Definitely not leading man material. Anything he was thrust into a leading role did not meet with much success except for perhaps playing Jesus Christ in "King of Kings".......

...in which Hunter staggers around almost comically/drunkenly after being beaten by the Roman soldiers on the road to Calvary. I always though he was over his head in that role (no pun intended), wooden and a poor fit. A light-skinned, blue-eyed WASP-ish Jesus? He looked about as Jewish as James Earl Jones!

About the only movie that ever got the casting right was 2001's little-seen "Joshua" in which they low and behold cast a Jewish American in the title role, a modern coming of Christ tale. What a concept!

 

[SteveJRogers]

I tend to agree with the idea that the puffing up of the "Gang of Four" as being stars of the show really comes from the convention circuit on.

Granted they, including Nurse Chapel, though she was GR's mate at the time, were involved in promotional material and such, the show's cast was really JUST Kirk, Spock and McCoy (well for the last two seasons anyway) and the others really were glorified day players.

Especially when one considers how little all 7 characters actually showed up in the same episode and whatnot. It is quite interesting to chart the appearances.

Mark Leonard was the only one of the group who came in that had real skills. When that guy was on screen, you paid attention.

This I think is part of the problem as well. Two appearances, playing two different characters, yet people associate this actor as being part of the Trek "cast."

Yes, two BIG characters, including one that would be seen in two films (well four if you want to count the character as opposed to the actor) and in a couple of TNG episodes and the other one was the first appearance of one of the most well known alien races in Trek, or dare I say sci-fi history.

But at the same time, it seems this is part of trying to make TOS an "ensemble" show when it clearly never was, nor did it ever say it was during the original run. Rather than saying the actor that portrayed the Romulan Comander and Sarek was a great guest star, this (and I don't mean to speak for the OP of the quote, but it does seem people do think this way, even if the OP does or doesn't) is all but giving the actor credit for being a full fledged "in the opening credits" cast member.

Now, if one of them charged that they were supposed to be in the episode, but Shatner maneuvered to have ALL their lines removed and therefore no reason for them to show up, and to be paid, the production of that episode. Then I think the case of Shatner as Spotlight Hog can be made.

Likewise I think a TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT regular castmember, or at least one that was in the credits, might be more justified in this sort of case, as being part of an ensemble presumably means eventually you'd get a spotlight episode or a B-Plot every so often.

Also I can see the idea that as time went on, and Shatner's post-Trek career grew, the jealousy factor must have played a big role in the attitudes.

 

[jk82]

s for starting late in TOS... Don't feel too bad. I always used to avoid Trek just "because" until my significant other got me hopelessly addicted a few years back. Better late than never!!

You are so right. Better late than never! I just hope more people get to see this amazing series that has everything one can wish for: rich stories with heart, humor and a beautiful cast. I hope more people can look past weird hairdos, outrageous costumes, primitive special effects or “overdramatic acting” to see the true essence of the show.

When I was watching the show for the first time, I was surprised by how balanced the pacing of the show is (at least in the first season and part of the second season). Sometimes camera would linger for a lengthy period of time on an object while our protagonists stare intensively and silently (The Cobomite Maneurver for example) for minutes! Today many TV shows and movies are filled with loud explosions, non-stop actions and deafening soundtracks! Now I have nothing against big loud action films that are better than average such as Star Trek the new movie. I just hope more people can have the patience to sit through those silent scenes when nothing seems to happen, but tension gets built up little by little. One cannot just watch a few minutes of Star Trek clips on youtube and claim that the show is just an absurd old TV show and acting is bad.

For example, Balance of Terror is one of my favorite episodes, not only because its war games remind me of one of my all time fave movie Das Boot (but hey, the movie came into existence after Star Trek), but also because of those quiet moments such as when Kirk tells Dr. McCoy his longing for a sea voyage, and when he softly utters to the girl mourning for the lost love, “It never makes any sense. We both have to know that there was a reason.” Such scenes are so tranquil yet so powerful, and never to the point of being melodramatic. Beautifully done indeed. Kudos to all the actors, writers, directors, editors, cinematographers… the entire cast and crew…Fantastic job indeed.

It may not be about the acting for her but at least she's watching TOS

It cannot be ALL about the acting… I didn’t know Mr. Shatner looked like that. He was indeed very handsome, still is. But then again, none of my other favorite actors comes even close to younger Mr. Shatner in the looks department. So I’d like to think it’s his acting and charisma that attracts me more.

At least I hope so.

I am not sure anymore.

He's walking eye candy so I totally understand your GF's point of view. Make sure she gets to see lots of his shirtless episodes too!

Please, no more temptations. Repeating “I prefer his acting and charisma” to myself 5000 times.

Actually I do appreciate men who can ride horses very well. Captain Picard will therefore not win my heart.

We are doing a TOS rewatch and the kids made me skip "The Menagerie." They said they wanted to see Captain Kirk, NOT Captain Pike as "Pike's boring except for the last movie!" They REALLY don't like the cast of "The Menagerie"/"The Cage" at all except for Spock.

Your kids have great tastes.

Even without DeForest Kelly's priceless McCoy, Shatner owns the screen with his acting and charisma while Hunter plays angry and subdued, his two calling cards.

I don’t know much about Hunter. His performance did not impress me. Besides, I just cannot imagine anybody else other than Mr. Shatner standing between Spock and McCoy listening to their “human vs. Vulcan” arguments with a priceless bemused facial expression without even having to say a single word…

Now, if one of them charged that they were supposed to be in the episode, but Shatner maneuvered to have ALL their lines removed and therefore no reason for them to show up, and to be paid, the production of that episode. Then I think the case of Shatner as Spotlight Hog can be made.

I don’t know exactly what Mr. Shatner did or said on the set of Star Trek that hurt their feelings since I have not read any of their books. But I do want to ask a few questions: Has Ms. Nichols ever told fans in public that Mr. Shatner interrupted shooting, personally drove her home, and carried her up to her house after she fainted on the set following a car accident? Sometimes good deeds need to be remembered as vividly as, if not more than, unpleasant things. Did Mr. Takei feel slighted by Mr. Shatner, who, after getting injured by Mr. Takei’s crazy sword swings, decided to grab the sword from him in such a manner that prevented him from having a glorified moment on screen? If that is one of the reasons for resentment, I don’t know what else to say.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Yes, two BIG characters, including one that would be seen in two films (well four if you want to count the character as opposed to the actor)

Actually, Lenard voiced the character in TFF. He also did so in the animated episode "Yesteryear", widely regarded as the best of TAS and adopted almost universally as canon.