Q, the Borg, and DS9

[Arpy]

In a recent tweet, Robert Hewitt Wolfe said that the writers on DS9 were forbidden from using Q after “Q-Less” and the Borg after “Emissary” as they became the purview of VOY.

How would the show have been different if it could have included more from them? What stories would you imagine being told?

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Only the most serious issues, of course:

Could a Borg cube fit in the wormhole, or would it clog it up like a kid's toy in the toilet?

If the Borg assimilated DS9, would their OCD cause them to turn the station into a sphere, just because?

What would Picard say to an assimilated Ben Sisko, after Sisko had berated Picard in episode 1 for supposedly being complicit at Wolf-359?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I am immensely happy Q never returned to the station, I find his character incredibly grating and though used as an interesting plot device in a few episodes he was someone who got worse the more screen time he had.

As for the Borg, that is an interesting pondery. If is was the full on force of the Collective then I think the station would've faced serious issues, given the threat the Dominion posed pre-upgrade but even then she is still a large immovable object which would've dwarfed by even a single Cube. I could see two ways in which having them appear would've been really interesting:

1. The Collective invade the Dominion. This could be before or during the war. There have often been debates as to which one is more powerful, so this would've seem them come to a head. I would see Starfleet be very nervous about the possibility of shapeshifting drones, and with more experience fighting the Borg would they have offered an olive branch (the enemy of my enemy is my friend)? This would also provide a rich background for Sisko, being the first time he properly encounters them after Wolf 359. Also, we'd get to see Kira go head to head with invading drones and they too would come the know (and fear) the Major
2. Lore's group of independent Borg are the ones who invade Cardassia, not the Klingons. Huge's attempt to lead them down a peaceful path has failed as some elements of their group pretty much go insane trying to deal with their individuality at the same time as the Borg programming tries to adapt and resume control, leading them to begin their own version of assimilation and building their own forces. With the Cardassians in their weakened state, this new Borg Conglomeration see it as their chance to claim some sizeable territory for themselves and launch an invasion.

 

[Tosk]

Sometimes edicts from on-high can be a blessing. I was very happy to leave Q and the Borg mostly out of DS9.

 

[Arpy]

Sometimes edicts from on-high can be a blessing. I was very happy to leave Q and the Borg mostly out of DS9.

I don’t think the show suffered for it, but I did think it strange Sisko never thought or mentioned of the Borg again give how pivotal they were to his life.

Q I would have liked one good DS9 episode out of. On VOY it was “Death Wish.” The rest I could have done without, although I did fantasize about Icheb and Q Jr. getting it on.

What a good Q DS9 episode would have been like I don’t know. Certainly, if he did multiple episodes during the series run, at some point he and the prophets would need to address each other. That might have been interesting or awful. I see him as far past them, but maybe their deal is that they’re from another universe so they’re kind of a wild card for him. Maybe he’s a force of nature in this universe and they’re beings from another, and there are balances to consider, especially if the Pah-Waiths cause trouble.

But the series already has gods to play with, so maybe leave the super cosmic stuff to them? More I wonder about John de Lancie having some good scenes with maybe Rene Auberjonois. Giving him a vision of a universe in which he imposes “justice” and terrifying him with the reality that he’s not as far from the Founders as he thinks. Especially if it comes at the cost of his relationship/life of Kira.

 

[Tosk]

but I did think it strange Sisko never thought or mentioned of the Borg again give how pivotal they were to his life.

Personally, I can see myself in his approach. He speaks of his loved one, no need to waste air on what took her.

 

[somebuddyX]

If Q had only been as powerful as say the Organians then the immediate reaction to me would have been to throw him into the middle of a Prophet/Pah-Wraith conflict and have be like Loki/Gabriel on "Supernatural" and how he reacted to the coming war between Lucifer and Michael. As is though, I think Q is just too powerful to bring into a story like that and was better suited for Voyager and had much more interesting scenes with Janeway than Sisko anyway.
As to the Borg, other fans suggested this years ago but lets say when First Contact was coming out there had been an episode that acted kind of like a prelude to that film but only in it's B or C story. They hear about a Borg cube attacking, the crew are meanwhile dealing with the plot of the episode and are elsewhere and the Defiant is prepped to go but maybe it's a sudden rush job which kinda is used to explain why most of the senior staff don't appear in the film. You could have Sisko contemplating the idea of facing them again but also perhaps thanks to help from the Prophets he has learned to live with what happened, which would be a interesting contrast to what you'd see with Picard.
One thing I want to see one day is someone do some fanart of Jem Hadar vs Borg fighting each other somewhere deep in the Gamma or Delta Quadrants, like Alien vs Predator (which admittedly now that I think of it would probably be a pretty short battle).
The honest truth for me is that there were many ideas I wish had turned up in DS9 in it's later seasons but the Borg and Q were never any of them.

 

[Watersluis]

The Borg would surely be even more inconsistently portrayed.

We have always been assimilating organic life.

 

[Arpy]

If Q had only been as powerful as say the Organians then the immediate reaction to me would have been to throw him into the middle of a Prophet/Pah-Wraith conflict and have be like Loki/Gabriel on "Supernatural" and how he reacted to the coming war between Lucifer and Michael. As is though, I think Q is just too powerful to bring into a story like that and was better suited for Voyager and had much more interesting scenes with Janeway than Sisko anyway.
As to the Borg, other fans suggested this years ago but lets say when First Contact was coming out there had been an episode that acted kind of like a prelude to that film but only in it's B or C story. They hear about a Borg cube attacking, the crew are meanwhile dealing with the plot of the episode and are elsewhere and the Defiant is prepped to go but maybe it's a sudden rush job which kinda is used to explain why most of the senior staff don't appear in the film. You could have Sisko contemplating the idea of facing them again but also perhaps thanks to help from the Prophets he has learned to live with what happened, which would be a interesting contrast to what you'd see with Picard.
One thing I want to see one day is someone do some fanart of Jem Hadar vs Borg fighting each other somewhere deep in the Gamma or Delta Quadrants, like Alien vs Predator (which admittedly now that I think of it would probably be a pretty short battle).
The honest truth for me is that there were many ideas I wish had turned up in DS9 in it's later seasons but the Borg and Q were never any of them.

What are done if the other ideas you had for the look after seasons? I’m always curious what fans like/wanted to see even if I’m smh half the time lol

But I like the iconic image you mentioned about a Borg vs a Jem-Hadar. Yeah that could be the cover of a graphic novel or something. I can see one of those multiple issue scenarios and the next one is an assimilated Changeling.

The Borg would have been interesting @Tosk because they’re not some wretched shooter rotting in prison after what they did but a clear and future threat to the safety of the Federation/quadrant. And possible complication for the Dominion/Gamma Quadrant depending on where it’s located in relation to the Delta Quadrant/Borg.

I’m wondering about what great stores and imagery we might have gotten out of the Borg on DS9…maybe even in a movie…but I'm also enjoying how distinct I think DS9 was from TNG and VOY…even ENT for its lack of them. There is the problem of all the series playing in every playground (cough Borg, cough Ferengi, cough Romulans on ENT) even when it didn’t make sense. You want series to be distinct for the different areas they cover.

 

[Takeru]

In a recent tweet, Robert Hewitt Wolfe said that the writers on DS9 were forbidden from using Q after “Q-Less” and the Borg after “Emissary” as they became the purview of VOY.

How would the show have been different if it could have included more from them? What stories would you imagine being told?

Voyager didn't start until two years after Emissary so I doubt it had anything to do with DS9 not using the borg, It may have become a reason later but early on it's more likely they didn't use them because the station and the runabouts wouldn't have had a chance against the borg, they could neither fight nor escape them.

 

[Arpy]

Voyager didn't start until two years after Emissary so I doubt it had anything to do with DS9 not using the borg, It may have become a reason later but early on it's more likely they didn't use them because the station and the runabouts wouldn't have had a chance against the borg, they could neither fight nor escape them.

It’s literally a main DS9 writer saying that the edict was no Borg because they’re for VOY. I imagine both series were saving them for later story development and major ratings stunts, and Berman or a studio exec said to keep the Borg for the Delta Quadrant as DS9 already had the Dominion. It was hard enough getting it the Defiant — Berman wanted only VOY to have a starship.

 

[somebuddyX]

What are done if the other ideas you had for the look after seasons? I’m always curious what fans like/wanted to see even if I’m smh half the time lol.

It was more kinda little stuff, things like seeing Alexander again, bringing in Tom Riker and Ro, bring back Gul Evek, having the Ferengi join the Dominion War. These were ideas I was thinking at the time, not knowing where the stories were going though. I fully imagined after "Sons and Daughters" that we would see Jake, Nog, Alexander and Ziyal together in one scene as like DS9's next generation.

 

[kkt]

Voyager might have been a better show if they had to make up their own alien threats. The Q got old pretty quickly for the audience and it's not very believable that a Q would keep wanting to play with humans. How many times did you go play with an ant's nest when you were little? A couple, maybe 3 or 4 even, but probably not more. And the Borg stopped being as interesting when they discovered they had a queen and killing her would kill all of them.

 

[somebuddyX]

NEXT TIME ON STAR TREk
"Q's been shot by another Q with one of those guns from "The Q and The Grey" and he's dying and reality's folding in on itself. It's up the three crews of modern Star Trek to save the universe in a special feature length episode crossover event. For the first time see the casts of Deep Space Nine, Voyager, and Jonathan Frakes with Levar Burton team up to revive a non corporeal alien somehow. How are they going to save someone who's basically a god? Eh? Beats me. Only on CBSUPN (or CIC Home Video)."

 

[Arpy]

It was more kinda little stuff, things like seeing Alexander again, bringing in Tom Riker and Ro, bring back Gul Evek, having the Ferengi join the Dominion War. These were ideas I was thinking at the time, not knowing where the stories were going though.

Ro would have been cool to see as a different kind of Bajoran — a secular unbelieving one. In my head-canon there was a massive religious Reformation and Holy War going on during the series thar we just never saw between different parts of Bajoran society. Ro and/or Evec might have been killed during the purge of the Maquis.

Evec would have been cool to see again as a different kind of Cardassian soldier. More honorable. Oh, I got it! A double role episode for Marc Alaimo as both Dukat and his cousin Macet. Macet and Evec being troubled by the new direction Dukat is taking them in since joining the Dominion.

I fully imagined after "Sons and Daughters" that we would see Jake, Nog, Alexander and Ziyal together in one scene as like DS9's next generation.

Oooh I like this. A bit like “Lower Decks” for DS9….even a touch a CW show? There must be other young people on the station too…Bajoran girls who hate the half-Cardie but like the Emissary's son so there’s drama there. Jake and Nog looking at younger kids sitting on their spot on the Promenade and thinking about how different they are now. Alexander may be a weenie by Klingon standards but it turns out is a total stud by normal peoples’. …and gay. I mean, someone’s gotta be, and the rest are accounted for. He and Senator Cretan’s son get it on to everyone’s consternation.

 

[dupersuper]

If only Voyager had been banned from using them after their early appearances on that show...

 

[Arpy]

In a different world, the Borg would have been very different on VOY. I think if they were going to do the Borg (and they were because they couldn’t not), it should have come at a cost. It’s bad enough the ship would survive against them at all, but to do it again and again was silly.

Every time they went up against the Collective, they should have lost something. Maybe a dozen nameless crew members the first time, maybe a familiar face the second time (say the Bolian Chel they could pepper in more episodes she the loss hurts more), maybe the entire planet they were hatching a mission to fight them with the third time, and maybe a regular cast member the final time — say Chakotay or Harry. And that’s it. Any future run-in would mean certain assimilation or destruction as a nuisance, and they decide, tragically, to add a dozen years and go the long way, away from Borg space.

In a more serialized series, the ship would go through profound changes with every interaction where finally, it would have a different nacelle and half the hill plating would be discolored for having been replaced.

 

[at Quark's]

In a different world, the Borg would have been very different on VOY. I think if they were going to do the Borg (and they were because they couldn’t not), it should have come at a cost. It’s bad enough the ship would survive against them at all, but to do it again and again was silly.

Every time they went up against the Collective, they should have lost something. Maybe a dozen nameless crew members the first time, maybe a familiar face the second time (say the Bolian Chel they could pepper in more episodes she the loss hurts more), maybe the entire planet they were hatching a mission to fight them with the third time, and maybe a regular cast member the final time — say Chakotay or Harry. And that’s it. Any future run-in would mean certain assimilation or destruction as a nuisance, and they decide, tragically, to add a dozen years and go the long way, away from Borg space.

In a more serialized series, the ship would go through profound changes with every interaction where finally, it would have a different nacelle and half the hill plating would be discolored for having been replaced.

My head canon was always that 7 of 9 told them a lot of 'insider tricks' (read: hidden weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the Borg to exploit) that allowed them to survive such confrontations time and time again. But yes, it was highly implausible.

 

[Takeru]

It’s literally a main DS9 writer saying that the edict was no Borg because they’re for VOY.

That obviously cannot be true for the start of DS9, that he was a writer for DS9 doesn't mean he can't misremember some things.

 

[Arpy]

That obviously cannot be true for the start of DS9, that he was a writer for DS9 doesn't mean he can't misremember some things.

I dunno. Maybe the edict then was to leave the Borg for TNG til they wrap/have their FC, then VOY happens.